Viewing 40 posts - 281 through 320 (of 404 total)
  • F1 Grid Girls under review
  • crosshair
    Free Member

    In this context- yes. You seem to have adopted ‘socially oppressed victims of sexism’ as a family badge of honour.

    Scantily clad grid girls are not stopping women from driving racing cars.
    Removing grids girls won’t promote female racers.

    There are very good evolutionary reasons why society has eveolved in the way it has. Banning stuff a few snowflakes find offfensive will not undo this.

    In a free society, the ratio of women to men in some things will be 80/20 and in another it may be 20/80.

    There will never be a huge percentage of women motor racers- it just doesn’t scratch their itch like it does for men. This is not sexist- it’s genetic. As long as the ones that do endeavour to compete are encouraged equally and treated fairly then it’s not sexist.

    Scantily clad grid girls do not prove that aspiring female race drivers are having to overcome unnecessary hurdles.

    ctk
    Free Member

    Of course it bloody does!

    Junkyard
    Free Member

    There are very good evolutionary reasons why society has eveolved in the way it has.

    In your opinion 😉

    We dont have pit girls for evolutionary reasons anymore than we have the internet and trolls* for evolutionary reasons. you seem to think every aspect of social life is for evolutionary reasons, its not. I have no idea why you would think this or think its a reasonable answer to every problem posed to you. Have you got an evolutionary reasons for why we evolved to side step questions by simply saying evolution innit ? 😉

    Scantily clad grid girls do not prove that aspiring female race drivers are having to overcome unnecessary hurdles.

    apart form the hurdle where their only role in the sport is to be the scantily clad girl.

    * I am not accusing you of trolling but we cannot fall back on hard to prove evolutionary reasons for any behaviour we currently observe in humanity

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    andyrm
    Free Member

    I think it’s all too easy to blame “society”, “the patriachy” etc etc. Start closer to home. Give your daughters a wide range of experiences, be proactive, tell her she can be whatever she wants to be whether it’s a grid girl, a scientist, an air hostess,an engineer or whatever, then FOLLOW THROUGH. When she finds something she enjoys and is good at, go all in to help her achieve her dream. Stop looking to someone else to “permit” it.

    Creating a constant negative narrative of “society stops you” etc is hardly an empowering and encouraging way to motivate someone is it?

    retro83
    Free Member

    apart form the hurdle where their only role in the sport is to be the scantily clad girl.

    And yet the Woman In Motorsport ambassador who has actually driven at the top level of motorsport thinks otherwise.

    Junkyard
    Free Member

    You know you had to use both the singular and use the past tense for her driving dont you.

    crosshair
    Free Member

    Junkyard- Of course we can- evolution hasn’t stopped!

    It’s my own idea yes but it doesn’t take much googling to back it up.

    You honestly think there’s no genetic pay off for a woman looking glamorous? The reason a predominantly male sport with a male fan base is enhanced by the presence of attractive women is the epitome of the evolution explanation! It’s just designed to further enhance the testosterone boost you get as a male fan when your team wins by association. (See stuff I linked earlier)

    slackalice
    Free Member

    Where does freedom of choice come into this? Have the grid girls been coerced or press-ganged into the role? Are they able to say ‘yes’ or ‘no’ to the job vacancy? Are they remunerated to a level which they individually find acceptable?

    Are the Chippendales still going? Have any of you been to one of their shows? The objectification there makes the grid girl issue an interesting one.

    poah
    Free Member

    The ladies are not scantily clad. They have a shirt and a top on. You see their arms and a bit above the knee. I see more skin on triathlete males

    Junkyard
    Free Member

    evolution hasn’t stopped!

    WTF are you talking about? Who said it had?

    You honestly think there’s no genetic pay off for a woman looking glamorous?

    Who said that – not you nor me again WTF are you talking about ?

    Have you got an evolutionary reason for why you never address the point made and simply deliver bucket loads of straw?

    There are very good evolutionary reasons why society has eveolved in the way it has.

    this was what you said and its not true.

    thisisnotaspoon
    Free Member

    Are the Chippendales still going? Have any of you been to one of their shows? The objectification there makes the grid girl issue an interesting one.

    The argument is not that modeling, stripping, porn or whatever is wrong (that’s a different topic). The point is about grid girls.

    Tits and ass (and willies if that’s your thing too) are awesome. If people want to exchange money to see them that’s fine.

    The problem is when a TV spectacle seen by millions of kids is as polarised as it is. Then people grow up with attitudes like:

    There are very good evolutionary reasons why society has eveolved in the way it has. Banning stuff a few snowflakes find offfensive will not undo this.

    I’m pretty sure just paraphrased the Confederacy’s justification for slavery.

    aracer
    Free Member

    I reckon I’m going to get a whole field full of strawmen out of this thread

    Junkyard
    Free Member

    In various states of undress, for your pleasure, for evolutionary reasons 😉

    rene59
    Free Member

    apart form the hurdle where their only role in the sport is to be the scantily clad girl.

    That’s rubbish right there and shows up that you know nothing about what you are talking about. There are many women involved at every level of F1 from marshalling right up to team management, including team bosses.

    crosshair
    Free Member

    We dont have pit girls for evolutionary reasons anymore than we have the internet and trolls* for evolutionary reasons. you seem to think every aspect of social life is for evolutionary reasons, its not. I have no idea why you would think this or think its a reasonable answer to every problem posed to you. Have you got an evolutionary reasons for why we evolved to side step questions by simply saying evolution innit ?

    I think there are quite obvious evolutionary undertones to nearly everything we do. I’ve backed this up with some links that agree.

    I don’t think motorsport needs to change because for the reasons I’ve explained at length already, it’s not ever going to be a level playing field. Women just don’t care about participating in and following motorsport in the same way.

    It’s not sexist for a sport to be male dominated in participation and presentation if it’s statistically done and followed mainly by men!!

    You moral crusaders are only seeking to tidy it up to fit your own flawed assumptions.

    aracer
    Free Member

    Woo, another one for my field

    It’s not sexist for a sport to be male dominated in participation and presentation if it’s statistically done and followed mainly by men!!

    So if a sport is male dominated in participation and support, let’s not bother to do anything at all to change that, because you might upset all those red blooded real men who follow it?

    molgrips
    Free Member

    Women just don’t care about participating in and following motorsport in the same way.

    Some women do. This is the while problem right here. You think you know what all women want and are prepared to defend the decisions of men about women.

    SOME women do want to compete. But they don’t get a fair crack of the whip (thinking cycling mainly here) just because men like you think that they don’t deserve one.

    Men are in control here aren’t they?

    molgrips
    Free Member

    Are the Chippendales still going? Have any of you been to one of their shows? The objectification there makes the grid girl issue an interesting one.

    Well no, because a strip show is purely for that purpose. You only go if you want to see scantily clad men.

    F1 is supposed to be a sport, not a T&A show. If it wants to be that, it can GTFO the telly.

    andyrm
    Free Member

    SOME women do want to compete. But they don’t get a fair crack of the whip (thinking cycling mainly here) just because men like you think that they don’t deserve one.

    Men are in control here aren’t they?

    Yes men ARE in charge here. The dads.

    If my daughter wanted to do something where there was a perceived blocker, I could either cry about society, the patriachy and oppression, or step up and get the blocker out of the way.

    Junkyard
    Free Member

    I think there are quite obvious evolutionary undertones to nearly everything we do. I’ve backed this up with some links that agree.

    You have indeed I have not disputed that but again you missed the point. I would repeat it but i know the outcome if i do.

    That assumption is deeply flawed as well. Much of what we do is socialisation, culture, history etc hence why we have such diversity in human beings, attitudes and culture, the world over, yet all are still evolving. Not everything is an ESS.

    You moral crusaders are only seeking to tidy it up to fit your own flawed assumptions.

    and you are only justifying it because you think every single thing we see today is the end product of evolution which is self evidently incorrect and a flawed assumption.

    rmacattack
    Free Member

    there will now be joey essex’s walking around the pits taking pout selfies of themselves, while wearing a pair of jeans that cuts the blood off to their testes

    aracer
    Free Member

    Right as fun as this has been, I’m going to knock down some of those strawmen in an attempt to move this debate on:

    1) Nobody is suggesting that there will ever be a 50/50 split in drivers on the F1 grid – we all agree that women aren’t naturally so predisposed to sport.

    2) Nobody is suggesting that the grid girls are a direct impediment to women who are already racing cars getting a F1 drive.

    3) The existence of scantily clad women (or men) in situations where the whole point is scantily clad women or men (ie burlesque shows, womens magazines etc.) is irrelevant.

    anybody using one of those lazy arguments is going to get referred back to this post

    Junkyard
    Free Member

    I could either cry about society, the patriachy and oppression, or step up and get the blocker out of the way

    I wish you the very best in overcoming the sexism inherent in society – let us know when you have defeated it all will you?

    crosshair
    Free Member

    Some women do

    Yes and they are able to progress as far as they their ability takes them. The lack of F1 professional drivers is nothing more than a statistical fact.
    F1 is not broken.

    aracer
    Free Member

    …and as a supplementary for those using such arguments, the actual point is as follows:

    We’re not expecting a 50/50 split, simply at not discouraging those smaller % of women who are interested in such things (the lower % of women interested in such things doesn’t mean that none are)

    Grid girls aren’t a direct impediment, it’s more subtle than that (way too subtle for some of you lot who just like to look at pretty girls). What they are is part of a theme which implies that women’s role is to stand around and look pretty (yes I do follow motorsport, I know about Claire Williams*, but she is a rarity like Susie, most of the presented image of women in F1 is them standing around looking pretty).

    * being a red blooded male with certain fairly normal tastes I appreciate the presence of Claire Williams – it’s not about suppressing such feelings

    aracer
    Free Member
    andyrm
    Free Member

    I wish you the very best in overcoming the sexism inherent in society – let us know when you have defeated it all will you?

    I’m not talking about changing society. I’m talking about proactive parenting and ensuring nothing holds my kids back from pursuing what they want.

    If everyone got their head down and dealt with the micro level things like empowering their own children, rather than virtue signalling, we’d have a stronger society where people felt able to do what they wanted, if they found their niche and worked hard, supported by their parents.

    tpbiker
    Free Member

    The fact that this whole debate revolves round f1 is a bit bizarre really..

    Molgrips house in ten years time when grid girls have been banned..

    ‘daddy…can I be an f1 driver one day.. There’s no reason that a woman couldn’t be successful in this sport, and you have always tought me that about gender bias etc etc.. Can I give it a go?’

    Molgrips.. ‘don’t be daft… It’s ridiculously expensive and normal people can’t afford it… .’

    ‘but daddy.. You said I could do anything I wanted…’

    Molgrips..’hang on a moment darling.. Let me quickly log in to stw and try to get rich people banned….’

    crosshair
    Free Member

    Exactly.
    Let’s say I have a son and a daughter both interested in becoming an F1 driver. In what way would my daughter face greater obstacles than my son?

    aracer
    Free Member

    Good luck with equal opportunities for your kids who didn’t go to Eton and Oxbridge – you’re right, no need to change society.

    If everyone got their head down and dealt with the micro level things like empowering their own children, rather than virtue signalling, we’d have a stronger society where people felt able to do what they wanted, if they found their niche and worked hard, supported by their parents.

    Are supporting your kids and wanting to change society mutually exclusive? Though you win a special prize for distilling the argument about casual sexism down to “virtue signalling”.

    Junkyard
    Free Member

    This thread would be two pages long if all the straw men posts were removed

    In what way would my daughter face greater obstacles than my son?

    Have you forgotten all the evolutionary reasons you cited – you are now in the novel position of not agreeing with yourself……I assume their is an evolutionary reason for this as well ?

    I’m not talking about changing society.

    then this can never happen

    I could either cry about society, the patriachy and oppression, or step up and get the blocker out of the way

    rene59
    Free Member

    If a young girl looked at F1 and decided that due to seeing grid girls the only role for her was as a grid girl then she likely isn’t going to be cut out for F1 racing anyway.

    aracer
    Free Member

    Oops forgot one:

    4) Nobody is suggesting grid girls directly makes other girls think that is their only possible role, it’s more subtle than that

    aracer
    Free Member

    How about if you also removed all my the posts pointing out the straw men?

    andyrm
    Free Member

    Good luck with equal opportunities for your kids who didn’t go to Eton and Oxbridge – you’re right, no need to change society.

    Here’s where the bullshit “inequality” thing falls down mate.

    We weren’t wealthy (both parents came from northern council estates but worked hard to give us a better life than they had).

    My youngest sister showed great aptitude for science, my parents pushed school and sixth form teachers & heads of department hard on a weekly basis to ensure she got the level of support she needed. She then got a scholarship to Cambridge to read natural sciences on the basis of her results and aptitude. She’s now based in Switzerland working as a material science researcher at a spin off from the university of Zurich.

    Did we have any advantage? No. She got there because my parents identified their kid was good at something and did whatever it took and broke down barriers to achieve it. Nothing to do with society, privilege or anything else.

    My point is that it’s too easy to blame “society” or other bogeymen and spend time and effort complaining about it, when that energy could be better spent dealing at a micro level. Personal responsibility for you and yours.

    Malvern Rider
    Free Member

    F1 is supposed to be a sport, not a T&A show.

    F1 is a vehicle (SWIDTSTW?!) for the purpose of making money from danger, testosterone, glamour, vanity, noise, speed and multi-millionaire aspirations.

    From the vendors of drinking water to the paid orange-u-tan pseudo-groupies, from the branded spanners to the Gillette-ad-looking drivers. All simply a supporting cast to generate cash from punters and for sponsors. It’s a perfect circle, and it will go around and around for as long as it continues to attract the teams and punters. The status quo is a massive earner. See also other ‘sports’.

    One might as well argue that the Big Brother show is ‘supposed to be a social experiment” 😉

    Sport has winners and losers. But remember, ‘everyone’s a winner’ at the fairground. Just like the man says.

    *Edit – and this: https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/nov/29/formula-one-toto-wolff-criticse-all-women-series-plans


    Junkyard
    Free Member

    I suggest you read any variety if research in socio-economic advantage and outcomes.

    Did we have any advantage? No. She got there because my parents identified their kid was good at something and did whatever it took and broke down barriers to achieve it. Nothing to do with society, privilege or anything else.

    Well apart from the advantage of good parents, who worked hard ,strived and pushed for her, teachers who pushed and were able to educate her to the desired standard and the scholarship that paid for the education your right she got no advantage at all and if you remove all of those the outcomes are the same.
    PS do you think say Boris worked as hard as she did or his parent as hard for him to get to Cambridge?
    No one is saying personal effort is not required but its madness to claim their is no inequality or inequality of opportunity or hard work can overcome it. Plenty of fok work hard, your parents for example, but dont get up the ladder.

    andyrm
    Free Member

    Well apart from the advantage of good parents, who worked hard ,strived and pushed for her

    And this is what we should be focusing on. Making parents understand the importance of striving, pushing and supporting their own kids, not expecting society to hold doors open.

    All 3 of us have done well in our respective and vastly different fields because we were taught that we could do whatever we wanted, and that we’d be supported if we worked hard at it.

    Junkyard
    Free Member

    WHOOSH

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