That’s the crux of it for me. It’s cars burning precious fuel to drive fast in circles for cheap thrills, cash and the chance to spray booze over your rivals!
It’s tacky to start with!!! It’s a bit different from getting a stripper to hand out Nobel peace prizes!

If the target audience and ultimately the customers who buy the stuff that encourages the sponsors to invest in the whole circus get a little buzz out of seeing a hot grid girl, and it makes the whole thing a bit more glamourous and alluring then they should not be ashamed of that.

I don’t think the girls are being exploited either. As I said, for me that is not the issue.

The simple question is if they were not there now would you suggest adding them?
Leads onto if they were replaced with somebody wearing more clothes would you notice?

I do wonder why we have a number if these arguments, race, sex, gender, etc. Where we have groups of folks who just don’t ‘get it’, on both sides. The seems to be no common frame of reference which allows folks to talk about the same thing. So arguments are orthogonal and we get nowhere.

Top post Sockpuppet.

Junkyard – lazarus
I lack the skill to express it like the poster above who says what I mean

Considering all the practice you’ve put in on here, maybe it’s time to acknowledge internet arguing isn’t really for you after all 😆

As a viewer, you see that the men (and a tiny minority of female drivers, in lower formulae) are there to drive, the young, pretty, often minimally dressed girls are there to look pretty.

Any girls watching see that. Boys watching see that. It contributes to their understanding of cultural norms. It may dissuade the girls from watching again. It certainly framed how the boys see the role of females in the sport, and the world.

I’d rather kids didn’t grow up watching this sort of differentiation.

Totally this.

It’s the same as the TDF podium girls – they aren’t being exploited at all, but their presence supports a damaging gender stereotype that we need to get away from.

maybe it’s time to acknowledge internet arguing isn’t really for you after all

The arguing bit I clearly have nailed so your joke is a bit flat*

* see what i did there 😉

I do wonder why we have a number if these arguments, race, sex, gender, etc. Where we have groups of folks who just don’t ‘get it’, on both sides. The seems to be no common frame of reference which allows folks to talk about the same thing. So arguments are orthogonal and we get nowhere.

This. It’s completely subjective. One person could consider posing on the podium highly desirable and driving cars fast in circles as utterly needless and demeaning. Another could think it’s vice versa.

Some people who aren’t fast drivers will see fast drivers on the podium getting money and status for being fast and will be sad. Some people who aren’t sexy young women will see SYW on the podium getting money and status for being SYW and will be sad.

It’s all totally subjective.

Always wondered what purpose they serve . When its slashing down, maybe but otherwise?
However, who does the job is no ones business but those who pay and those who do. No one in this world has the right to say “you can’t do that because it gives a certain image or perception.” If the girls are happy, good luck to them. If not, they can do something else.

No one in this world has the right to say “you can’t do that because it gives a certain image or perception.”

Why not?

Apparently this argument does not extend to women wearing the Burkha

Interestingly I wonder how many folk argue that titillating women is their choice but the Burka is oppression and vice versa

The protective gear the drivers wear tends to result in them overheating while sitting about on the grid. The umbrellas are more important then than when it’s raining.

and status for being SYW and will be sad.

Is this a new offshoot of STW?

People who object to this on the basis that it sends wrong signals to their kids should raise their children a bit better and leave everyone else alone.

Being honest losing pretty girls from the grid won’t affect me. But when they try to take the pretty girls out of porn then they’ll have to drag something from my cold, dead hands…

from my cold, dead hands…

Sitting on your arm again?

It helps.

People who object to this on the basis that it sends wrong signals to their kids should raise their children a bit better and leave everyone else alone.

Being a good parent goes like this:

“See how the women are just standing around looking pretty whilst the men are doing the exciting stuff? It doesn’t have to be like that. Women can do exciting stuff too, they aren’t just pretty things”
“But Dad, why do they only have women looking pretty and only men driving?”
“Because some people still think that racing is a men’s thing and women are just pretty things”
“That’s wrong, and it upsets me that people think that about me. I want to make things better when I grow up.”

So then they grow up and campaign for change, and get criticised by people like you *because* they were brought up well. Can’t win really, can we?

It will be quite difficult to argue societal norms dont affect children irrespective of the parents efforts. Still I am wiling to read your attempt.

Let’s suppose a ban is implemented. If I were a driver and it was particularly sunny of wet I would want someone there keeping me in the shade or dry, couldn’t give a toss if it’s Mick the mechanic in his overalls or his Missus in a dress (or any other team member or friend) …. or maybe they are wearing team shirts or something else with advertising on it …… and maybe especially if it’s hot they choose to wear something like a vest and shorts.

So, like I said, where do you draw the line?

molgrips – Member

People who object to this on the basis that it sends wrong signals to their kids should raise their children a bit better and leave everyone else alone.

Being a good parent goes like this:

“See how the women are just standing around looking pretty whilst the men are doing the exciting stuff? It doesn’t have to be like that. Women can do exciting stuff too, they aren’t just pretty things”
“But Dad, why do they only have women looking pretty and only men driving?”
“Because some people still think that racing is a men’s thing and women are just pretty things”
“That’s wrong, and it upsets me that people think that about me. I want to make things better when I grow up.”

So then they grow up and campaign for change, and get criticised by people like you *because* they were brought up well. Can’t win really, can we?

Best Molgrips post ever tbh

Balance is the answer but as with most aspects of 21st century life, society just seems to swing wildly from one extreme to the other.

“See how the women are just standing around looking pretty whilst the men are doing the exciting stuff? It doesn’t have to be like that. Women can do exciting stuff too, they aren’t just pretty things”
“But Dad, why do they only have women looking pretty and only men driving?”
“Because some people still think that racing is a men’s thing and women are just pretty things”
“That’s wrong, and it upsets me that people think that about me. I want to make things better when I grow up.”

Well it’s only a small percentage who think like that, most people can get their heads around the fact that some women want to be drivers and some want to stand around looking pretty. No one is forcing anyone to do either, they could even do both if they wanted to.

Women can be F1 drivers, nothing stopping them if they have the talent and resources to do so. Nothing stopping men standing around looking pretty either if there is a market for them to do so.

Still don’t see the problem, I’m sure the women ‘just standing around pretty’ work hard in order to maintain their appearance, who’s to say what they are doing isn’t exicitng to them?

Good point – I’ll not let my kids watch F1 or anything else with podium girls then. That appears to be the only obvious way to “raise my kids better” so that they don’t get sent the wrong signals.

This is relevant for this and many other subjects!

17 minutes of your time, have a coffee.

Male-dominated forum in “not getting everyday casual sexism” shocker.

Tyranny of the masses who are happy to accept casual sexism?

Women can be F1 drivers, nothing stopping them if they have the talent and resources to do so. Nothing stopping men standing around looking pretty either if there is a market for them to do so.

Yeah, that’s definitely the impression a casual observer (or say a child – though it seems molgrips’ kids understand better than you do) would get from seeing the grid at a Grand Prix.

Men deciding what women can and can’t do with their lives isn’t sexist at all. 🙄

Yeah, that’s definitely the impression a casual observer (or say a child – though it seems molgrips’ kids understand better than you do) would get from seeing the grid at a Grand Prix.

We should probably remove all the displays of wealth from the sport as well then as it gives the impression only the wealthy can participate.

Page 5 and no grid girl ratings? 😯

Lucy Pinder from Alonso’s days at Renault…
Out of ten, I’d definitely give her one, no questions asked. 😯 😈

Oh, not that type of review of grid girls. 😉

which men the men of F1 who hire them or the men on this forum who object?

The most backward looking people in this thread are those suggesting that women who’ve chosen modelling for a career are inferior to those who’ve chosen to drive a stupid car in circles.

Even male drivers aren’t chosen purely for their ability in the car! Where are all the ugly ones??
In a big money sporting enterprise, you are a commercial asset and need to look good on TV whether you have a steering wheel or an umbrella in your hands.

Women can be F1 drivers, nothing stopping them if they have the talent and resources to do so.

Doesn’t sound like you’ve really thought about society much.

Women are often dissuaded from doing certain things because from a very young age they are conditioned to think that some things are for girls and some.for boys. Just look around a toy shop. They have a boys section and a girls section, FFS.

Kids learn from the world around them. And when the world teaches them sexism things, it gets baked into everyone’s minds, so they don’t notice it any more. Like you rene59.

Same as how there are so few women snooker players. You think that’s because women are inferior?

I think that’s nonsense. Men and women are not intrinsically motivated in the same ways.

http://time.com/4322947/men-women-sports-evolution/

Even male drivers aren’t chosen purely for their ability in the car! Where are all the ugly ones??

this is **** nuts

Obvs a model is chosen for their appearance obviously a driver is chosen for their driving ability – and possibly ability to fund their drive/sponsorship.
Their looks are neither her nor there and anyway who thinks it is is either making a poor joke or has very poor understanding

Kids learn from the world around them. And when the world teaches them sexism things, it gets baked into everyone’s minds, so they don’t notice it any more. Like you rene59.

Do you dress and have your hair styled in a gender neutral fashion? Do you wear dresses from time to time to set a good example?

I see and recognise plenty of sexism. I don’t believe having a girls toys section and a boys toy section is sexist. Telling a girl she couldn’t have a boys toy is. Nothing wrong in my opinion of having two separate genders with different likes and dislikes and individuals free to choose from either or both. Whether society created that or responded to natural lines I don’t think you could say conclusively either way. I believe that people should be who or what they like and they should have the freedom to do so.

Men and women are not intrinsically motivated in the same ways.

Did you read your own link?

None of this means that socialization, gender bias and all of the other cultural variables are not at work in the largely male world of sport. “An evolutionary approach is fully compatible with socialization playing a large role,” the researchers write, and so it is

At least quite the whole paragraph Junkyard 🙄

Play has always been a big part of the life of all humans, and sports can be a big part of play. But that doesn’t mean the genders don’t still do it in many different ways—and for many different reasons.

It doesn’t change the fact that the motivation is different. Women just aren’t interested in sport as much as men even when participation is largely equalised.

Similarly, the fact that there are far fewer women than men who earn their livelihoods playing sports can be viewed as an effect, rather than a cause, of lesser female sports interest. For example, the premier men’s basketball league in the U.S., the National Basketball Association (NBA), has sponsored a women’s professional league (WNBA) since 1997, and the attendance and viewership is a small fraction of the NBA’s and has not grown [114]. Similarly, in the late 1990s a magazine was launched called Sports Illustrated Women (SI Women). SI Women was targeted to appeal to girls and women who wanted follow high-level women’s sports in the way that Sports Illustrated caters to the interests of male sports fans. However, publication of SI Women ceased in 2002 because there was not a market to support it [115], [116]. Other magazines focusing on elite female athletes have also failed to gain large readerships [115].

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0049168

The exercise results indicate that both males and females are motivated to be physically active, but that males are generally more interested in pursuing this in a competitive way

Another reason perhaps why Darts, Snooker and Motorsports aren’t intrinsically motivating for women- they don’t provide the exercise fulfilment and only appeal to a males innate desire to prove their qualities over their rivals?

Another set of studies addressed historical convergence in a less direct fashion, focusing on sex differences in willingness to train competitively in distance running. Deaner [85], [107], [108] showed that, although the number females that participate in distance running in the U.S. has grown steadily since the 1970s, so that there is no longer a sex difference in participation, there are still roughly three times as many males that run fast relative to sex-specific world class standards. For example, in a typical local 5 K road race with equal male and female participation, for every female that finishes within 25% of the female world record, there are roughly three males that finish within 25% of the male world record. This pattern holds robustly for elite runners and non-elite (i.e., recreational) runners, and tests reveal no indication that the sex difference in the number of relatively fast performers has diminished over the past few decades. Because relative running performance is an equally strong predictor of training volume (e.g., kilometers/week) in men and women [109], these patterns indicate that the sex difference in willingness to train competitively is large and stable [85], [107], [108]. Apparently, the large increase in female runners has mainly involved those who run for non-competitive reasons; most competitive females were already competing by the 1980s or early 1990s.

More evidence that men are predisposed to race each other and women aren’t.

At least quite the whole paragraph Junkyard

It still does not prove what you claimed, being kind it partially proves it

It doesn’t change the fact that the motivation is different. Women just aren’t interested in sport as much as men even when participation is largely equalised.

It really does not say that and the link is there for anyone who can comprehend to read