Red bull masters of the art of cheating widout cheating

Bang out of order, using traction control and blown diffuser!

Think we all know what would have happened had it been

IMO. its f1 throw away the rules. go as fast as you can make a car go. perfomance based rules are for f2 and other racing that is not ment the be the ultimate

I saw a note on this this morning, have they been penalised?
Can’t watch F1 and Le Tour so waiting for hightlights in the Beeb.

“While the stewards do not accept all the arguments of the team, they however conclude that as the regulation is written the map presented does not breach article 5.5.3 of the technical regulations”

– in other words they’re cheating, but the rules aren’t tight enough to penalise them.

– in other words they’re cheating, but the rules aren’t tight enough to penalise them.

Interesting how different governing bodies apply the rules and sanctions differently.

So the FIA, who write and enforce the rules say rules broken and refer it to stewards for punishment.

Stewards then do nothing

Does overtaking with all four wheels off the circuit count as cheating too?

Martin Brundle. reckons it was illegal

Technically it is, but given how much faster vettel was, I don’t think it should be an issue

“While the stewards do not accept all the arguments of the team, they however conclude that as the regulation is written the map presented does not breach article 5.5.3 of the technical regulations”

– in other words they’re cheating, but the rules aren’t tight enough to penalise them.

Er, if it doesn’t “breach article 5.5.3” they aren’t cheating, they’re being clever.

F1 is all about exploiting loopholes. Always has been until the regs are updated.

Vettel penalised 20 seconds which demotes him to 5th. shame…

Good Engineering, innit?

Anyone who thinks that its cheating, should read up on Colin Chapman.

First aim of any motor-based sport is to ensure they produce the best vehicle within the rules, and if the rules have either been badly written or are difficult to interpret, then its not the teams who are at fault.

Vettel ‘Button didnt say anything to me’..

Err yes he did.

Baby Schu the new fullfat cheating Schu?

Er, if it doesn’t “breach article 5.5.3” they aren’t cheating, they’re being clever.

i take this to mean – they are breaching what the rules are designed to stop but they have done it in such a way they dont break the actual wording of the rule.
Whether you think this “breaking the spirit if not the word” is ok or not is a personal decision.

Whether you think this “breaking the spirit if not the word” is ok or not is a personal decision.

Sounds like the difference between Roman and Common law – the former is a limit, the second is a diffuse “spirit of the law”. Personally when it comes to something completely pointless like sport, I prefer the former. In real life, the latter.

Vettel really doesn’t do himself any favours though. He could learn a lot from Alonso. And Button.

The interview by the Sky team with Christian Horner was quite funny

Both Damon Hill and Johnny Herbert told him they thought Vettel had exceeded the rules and should be penalised. Horner then went on to give his version at which Hill laughed and said “as an ex driver’s steward, good luck with that defence, you’ll need it”

Not sure I’d totally blame Vettel though, the adrenalin is pumping hard and they’re all on the limit, the team should have told him to give the place back

These things must be quite difficult to administer, Vettel stays off circuit and avoids an accident then gets rewarded with a 20 second penalty. Maldonado tries to stay on the circuit in order to avoid the 20 second penalty and is rewarded with a Hamilton! 😕

Vettel stays off circuit and avoids an accident

What condemned him was he was heading for that piece of off-track tarmac long before he turned in

As above, the rules are what is written down. If you aren’t breakign what’s written down then it’s allowed.

They introduced a maximum fuel tank size in one of the American series to make sure people pitted more often and to make the racing more interesting.

So someone introduced a 3″ diameter fuel line and was getting about 4 laps extra per refuel.

The rules were changed and he dropped to a normal size.

IT’s racing, teams will always push the boundaries – if there is ambiguity then it will be exploited – you only had to see that Gordon Murray documentary to understand that it’s been going on since the rules were written down.

What condemned him was he was heading for that piece of off-track tarmac long before he turned in

Isn’t that called reading the road and acting responsibly?

Isn’t that called reading the road and acting responsibly?

In this case it wasn’t, it simply looks like that was his only option to get past and took it
He should have give the place back, the white line defines the circuit, he made the pass whilst off the circuit

Don’t get me started on Maldonado, the man has no place on a racing circuit after maiming that track marshall a few years back

Vettel stays off circuit and avoids an accident then gets rewarded with a 20 second penalty.

It’s the bit where he overtook whilst off the circuit that is the problem everything else is fine.
He mnust have realised what would happen

Don’t get me started on Maldonado, the man has no place on a racing circuit after maiming that track marshall a few years back

He was actually banned for life from racing in Monaco until his father stepped in and said he’d pay damages and rehabilitation for the marshal whose back was broken in the incident. There’s definitely something about Maldonado that reminds me of a far less talented Senna. Tries to muscle people out of the way but it doesn’t work so well.

For the Vettel incident, you just have to imagine what his decision would have been had that been a wall instead of a white line. Both mark the edge of the track, it’s just the consequences of going off the track that differ.

As far as I’m concerned, providing they didn’t breach a rule the technical side of things is just loophole finding. There’s no “in the spirit of” nonsense – if it isn’t forbidden by the rules, it’s not illegal and it’s fine.

…it’s not illegal and it’s fine…

…or more likely the rules will be clarified and it will not be allowed next week.

Don’t get me started on Maldonado, the man has no place on a racing circuit after maiming that track marshall a few years back

Got more background on this one.

Personally I think he should have had a proper punishment after his first blatant incident in F1 (like a couple a races suspension) when he deliberately hit Hamilton in qualify at Spa last year. I’ve never seen any other driver behave that way.

The comparision with Senna isn’t justified he never did anything like that

Maldonado gets road rage; he should be on a driving awareness course not the track.

As for the engine maps James Allen’s excellent site has all the minute details.

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2012/07/the-red-bull-renault-engine-map-controversy/

As for this

Vettel stays off circuit and avoids an accident then gets rewarded with a 20 second penalty. Maldonado tries to stay on the circuit in order to avoid the 20 second penalty and is rewarded with a Hamilton!

The similarities and differences of the two incidents are actually quite telling.

In both the Mclarens drivers on fading tyres positioned their car perfectly in such a way it was impossible for the faster car behind to pass at that corner. (Alonso is also an expert in this as he proved a few years back. At Imola if my memory is good?)

Vettel, being a fairly sensible chap, saw some tarmac and made a calculated risk that due to the proximity to the end of the race this may be his only option to pass and to do it off the track. The only risk in doing this was that he would be penalised and he either decided it was a risk worth taking or failed to properly understand that he couldn’t overtake off the circuit like that as he though he was taking the long way round.

Maldinardo, being a hot headed danger to himself and others with a grudge against Hamilton the world, failed to accept that Hamiltion had out smarted him at that corner and hang back given a wall meant there was no escape around the outside. Instead he smashed into the side of Hamilton; there was plenty of circuit behind Hamilton that he could have tried to stay on to try to avoid his 20s penalty.

IMO Vettles penalty of of 4 place drop was harsh but inevitable as a “drive through” is the lowest penalty available to the stewards. Dropping being Button would have been appropriate but there wasnt’ any mechanism to achive this. But Maldinardo got of lightly and somebody needs to teach him a lesson. It is preferable this is a steward rather than a wall and a hospital bed.

Got more background on this one.

As someone said up there it was an incident at Monaco a few years ago, totally sickening at the time

http://www.auto123.com/en/racing-news/f1-banned-for-life-maldonado-lucky-to-be-in-monaco?artid=143808

…or more likely the rules will be clarified and it will not be allowed next week.

It’s currently not illegal and someone will modify the rules next week because they don’t like it/someone complained.

F1 is about engineering innovation to get the most from a car under a set of rules. It’s not purely about testing driver skill, it’s about testing constructor skills and innovation – teams that don’t push the rules don’t compete, simple.

If everyone stuck within the rules to the letter the cars would amalgamate into the same object with nothing between them in about 1 season. In that case you might as well just run stanard cars.

It’s currently not illegal and someone will modify the rules next week because they don’t like it.

Well the FIA [who make the rules] have said that Red Bull are in violation of them, the stewards [who interpret the rules] said RB are technically within the rules.

The FIA will now reword the rules to try and ensure that their original meaning can be enforced, nothing to do with anyone not liking it.

bigyinn – Member

F1 is all about exploiting loopholes. Always has been until the regs are updated.

+1 Has been from inception and to be honest fundamental to the formula. Nothing new here. Used to be Ferrari, prior to that, McLarenm, prior to that Williams.

Well the FIA [who make the rules] have said that Red Bull are in violation of them, the stewards [who interpret the rules] said RB are technically within the rules.

The FIA will now reword the rules to try and ensure that their original meaning can be enforced, nothing to do with anyone not liking it.

It is “not liking it”. If the rules were not written to cover it they don’t cover it, simple, in order to cover that they have to modify them. If they have to be re-written it’s because they feel they have not adequately covered the variation and it needs clarifying then they obviously were not happy with that variation.

It’s cat and mouse, that’s how these rules work. If it were blatent ignoring of a safety-related rule then sure, take a dim view of it, but really this is nothing more than “damn, they found a way round it – rules v13.1 shall cover that!”.

The FIA made it clear that they are happy with the rule as it stands but may have to reword it to help the stewards understand it better

Perhaps you need to a word with them?