You cannot be so naive to completely disconnect religion from terrorism. Not in Islamic fundamentalism, Christian fundamentalism or any other religious fuelled fundamentalism. Religion is the mechanism by which people justify good deeds as well as bad, it’s intertwined and you cannot pick and choose where it’s influence applies or it doesn’t. You cannot ignore the religious element in dealing with the root cause of acts like these and it has to be dealt with. As far as this latest atrocity goes, these people didn’t have an issue with drone strikes or Blair, they’ve come out and said its in retaliation to Pakistani military operations in the region, so Pakistanis defending their own country from these Taliban thugs. You cannot even begin to try to justify or appease these actions to make a cheap political point about your own views on Blair or drone strikes. Shame on you for doing so. Actions like these can only be unconditionally condemned by any decent person. There is no more deplorable act that people can do to others. I’m deliberately not using the te Human as these people ceased to be human the moment they conceived of this act.

Yeah, you’ve fallen into the same trap as the people who label Hitler as a monster. It makes themselves feel better about the human condition, when in reality we all have the potential to do evil things given the right circumstances and lack of self awareness.

Could add to that mix the Dunblane Shootings, which by many accounts were related to a paedophile ring involving VIPs at the Queen Victoria School, a Military Boarding School under the patronage of Prince Philip.

Odd that some documents surrounding the incident are so restricted they have a 100 year ban.

As a former pupil of said school during those events I’d like to extend a massive **** YOU ****! Take your **** warped lies elsewhere and tell them to some other mug that won’t know any different.

2014

2 November Taliban suicide bomber kills 60 people in an attack on a paramilitary checkpoint close to the Wagah border crossing with India.

8 June A suicide bomber in the country’s south-west killed at least 23 Shia pilgrims returning from Iran.

2013

22 September Twin suicide bomb blasts in a Peshawar church kill at least 85 people.

3 March Explosion in Karachi kills 45 Shia outside a mosque.

10 January Bombing in Shia area of Quetta kills 81 people.

2012

22 November A Taliban suicide bomber struck a Shia procession in the city of Rawalpindi, killing 23.

5 January Taliban fighters kill 15 Pakistani frontier police after holding them hostage for more than a year.

2011

20 September Militants kill at least 26 Shia on a bus near Quetta.

13 May A pair of Taliban suicide bombers attack paramilitary police recruits in Shabqadar, killing 80, in retaliation for Osama bin Laden’s killing.

2010

5 November A suicide bomber strikes a Sunni mosque in Darra Adam Khel, killing at least 67 during Friday prayers.

1 September A triple Taliban suicide attack on a Shia procession kills 65 in Quetta.

9 July Two suicide bombers kill 102 people in the Mohmand tribal region.

2 July Suicide bombers attack Pakistan’s most revered Sufi shrine in Lahore, killing 47 people.

29 May Two militant squads armed with hand grenades, suicide vests and assault rifles attack two mosques of the Ahmadi minority sect in Lahore, killing 97.

1 January A suicide bomber drives a truckload of explosives into a volleyball field in Lakki Marwat district, killing at least 97 people.

2009

28 December Bomb blast kills at least 44 at a Shia procession in Karachi.

9 October A suicide car bomber hits a busy market area in Peshawar, killing 53.

2008

20 September A suicide bomber devastates the Marriott Hotel in Islamabad with a truck full of explosives, killing at least 54.

2007

27 December Former Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto and 20 other people are killed in a suicide bombing and shooting attack in Rawalpindi.

I understand people’s impulse to widen the subject into an argument about the wider picture of international violence and so on, but I want to re-establish focus on my central point of the appalling act contained within an already horrific attack.

They killed a teacher by pouring gasoline over him and then setting him alight. In front of the children. Forcing them to watch it. Before (presumably), shooting the children.

Think about that for a second.

The Pakistani government have just re-introduced the death penalty

That should sort it!

You cannot even begin to try to justify or appease these actions to make a cheap political point about your own views on Blair or drone strikes. Shame on you for doing so. Actions like these can only be unconditionally condemned by any decent person. There is no more deplorable act that people can do to others.

It’s not justification or appeasement to point out the double standard here. Did any of you give that much of a shit when CIA drone strikes killed hundreds of Pakistani kids? No – because we’re the good guys and when we kill kids it’s all fine.

Remember the outrage about this?

Religious school attacked
It is one of the worst incidents of the entire drones campaign, yet one of the least reported. A CIA strike on a
madrassa or religious school
in 2006 killed up to 69 children, among 80 civilians.
The attack was on a religious seminary in Chenegai, in Bajaur Agency.

CIA drones attacked on October 30, flattening much of the school. Their target was reportedly the headmaster, a known militant. According to some reports, there was also a token late contribution to the assault by Pakistani military helicopters. But dozens of children were also killed, the youngest aged seven.

http://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/2011/08/11/more-than-160-children-killed-in-us-strikes/

Me neither.

They attack schools because education is the enemy of the putrid medieval religion behind these attrocities.

Drone Not Drones

eurrrgghhh.. massive hangover and already 20 mins late for my youngest’s nursery school Chrimbo party..

I will make a great effort not to slay any kids when I get there

Could add to that mix the Dunblane Shootings, which by many accounts were related to a paedophile ring involving VIPs at the Queen Victoria School, a Military Boarding School under the patronage of Prince Philip.

Odd that some documents surrounding the incident are so restricted they have a 100 year ban.

As a former pupil of said school during those events I’d like to extend a massive **** YOU ****! Take your **** warped lies elsewhere and tell them to some other mug that won’t know any different.

Appreciate your passion, must’ve been horrific.

I haven’t lied; many accounts do indeed allude to what I’ve stated. I wasn’t there, but Thomas Hamilton evidently had links to the ‘Friends of QVS’.

If there was even the tiniest chance that the allegations were true, wouldn’t you want to pursue justice?

What do you think was horrific?

Certainly none of what you said has any truth behind it and if by “all accounts” you mean a single testimony by an ex-member of staff who also had no evidence or even full confidence to back up his allegations then rock on.

Thomas Hamilton, though having entered school grounds, had absolutely no contact with any pupils there. Plenty of groups use the school facilities when the pupils are on holiday so it’s not inconcievable that he and his scout group would have done the same. As for the “Friends of QVS” I don’t remember the existence of any group of that name. VIP’s and such (school commissioners and guests) would hold functions on the school grounds but certainly none that would facilitate the sorts of activities you’re suggesting.

The issue over access to dormitories has been twisted to suit the author. In actual fact it was more to do with the fact that former pupils were coming up for the reunion weekend and treating the place as a bunk house rather than anything sinister.

To be quite clear and to the point – you’re talking out of your arse and don’t have the first idea about anything you’re talking about. Of course if there WAS a case to answer I would want to see it answered but what these allegations are doing is putting two and two together and coming up with nine. It’s a tiny school with ~250 pupils, it would be nigh on impossible to do the things suggested without SOMEONE noticing and broadcasting it to all and sundry within hours. Of course you, and presumably the authors of these accusations, don’t know things like that and can just peddle baseless accusations with impunity since the chances of anyone in the know happening upon them are fairly remote.

My bad, I misunderstood, I thought you meant you were in the primary school when the shootings occurred.

You seem to disregard that there are several accounts that Thomas Hamilton was a danger to children from as early as 1981, and six police investigations but somehow he was left untouched by the procurator fiscal and still allowed a firearms license:

https://www.tes.co.uk/article.aspx?storycode=61692

Whether or not there was misconduct at QVS is debatable, but given what certainly appears to be standard practice nationwide of covering up such affairs, it would be foolish to disregard the possibility:

http://exaronews.com/articles/5429/protected-paedophile-mps-and-prominent-people-say-police

Sorry if that offends you because you went to school there, it could be nothing, but given the overall trend, it warrants investigation.

Christ… Using the deaths of 140 people in Pakistan as a pretext to peddle your usual line of paedogeddon conspiracy bollocks is pretty spectacularly shitty.

Cool, let’s get back on topic then shall we;

This is doubtless a horrific and barbaric attack, but as many have said in the thread already, it is part of a bigger picture; from drone strikes, to the CIA funding and training the Taliban in the 1st place:

[video]www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYvO3qAlyTg[/video]

The real evil comes in the form of the western intelligence services and the military industrial media complex.

Stir tensions, provide weapons, demonize

Same cycle been played out again and again, but as global media has progressed, so has the depth of manipulation.

The same people have been profiting throughout, be it from arms sales, private military firms or indeed selling newspapers.

Carlyle Group, Halliburton, Blackwater, ArmourGroup, NewsCorp etc etc are all complicit in the scenarios which lead to such tragedy and perpetuate hatred and war.

Behind the mask of these faceless corporations, all too often you’ll find the same politicians who make the case for war.

Telegraph have decided to discuss this in a pretty head-on manner:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/Pakistan/11297608/After-the-Pakistan-school-attack-we-need-to-talk-about-Islam.html

They’ve got a point.

What I found particularly terrifying, though he was only pointing out what we already know, was the regional expert on Radio 4 this morning. I think he was a former ambassador in the region

He pointed out that you can not negotiate with these people, as they don’t really have any demands short of everyone submitting completely to their warped world view. There is no compromise. No middle ground. That is their sole aim. And they see themselves purely as warriors on Gods mission, and actively seek martyrdom

When you take a moment to think about that, and what it legitimises in their eyes, its pretty ****ing scary

It’s chilling. On the one hand, we hear Pakistanis talking with great feeling and eloquence about what they want their country to become – how they see Malala Yousafzai as a heroine and are proud of her Nobel Peace award – and on the other we hear of the mindless, soulless barbarity of people hell-bent on seeing not just Pakistan, but the whole world, revert to some version of the dark ages.

As you say, there is no more sense in reasoning with this mindset than trying to reason away a wasps nest or an infestation of ants.

They’ve got a point.

What I found particularly terrifying, though he was only pointing out what we already know, was the regional expert on Radio 4 this morning. I think he was a former ambassador in the region

He pointed out that you can not negotiate with these people, as they don’t really have any demands short of everyone submitting completely to their warped world view. There is no compromise. No middle ground. That is their sole aim. And they see themselves purely as warriors on Gods mission, and actively seek martyrdom

When you take a moment to think about that, and what it legitimises in their eyes, its pretty ****ing scary

They weren’t AQ they were Pakistan Taliban, effectively a much more extreme ETA. I should imagine if Pakistan turned it into a semi-autonomous region like Muslim Mindanao in the Philippines….the problem would go away.

So yes, Pakistan probably can negotiate with them if that’s what people wanted , they seem to be fighting for independence from Pakistan.

Also….

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deobandi#Taliban

The movement developed as a reaction to British colonialism in India, which was believed by a group of prominent Indian scholars — consisting of Rashid Ahmad Gangohi, Muhammad Yaqub Nanautawi, Shah Rafi al-Din, Sayyid Muhammad Abid, Zulfiqar Ali, Fadhl al-Rahman Usmani and Muhammad Qasim Nanotvi — to be corrupting the Islamic religion. They therefore founded an Islamic seminary known as Darul Uloom Deoband.[5] From here the Islamic revivalist and anti-imperialist ideology of the Deobandis began to develop

LOL once again, an example of how Britain has **** up the world on a far greater scale than Nazi Germany ever managed.

It’s not even just about Islam itself, Pashtun culture would indicate these aren’t people to be trifled with.

The Pathan tribes are always engaged in private or public war. Every man is a warrior, a politician and a theologian. Every large house is a real feudal fortress….Every family cultivates its vendetta; every clan, its feud…. Nothing is ever forgotten and very few debts are left unpaid.
Winston Churchill (My Early Life – Chapter 11: The Mahmund Valley)
Nyaw aw Badal (justice and revenge) – To seek justice or take revenge against the wrongdoer. No time limit restricts the period in which revenge can be taken. Justice in Pashtun lore needs elaborating: even a mere taunt (or “Peghor/?????”) counts as an insult which usually can only be redressed by shedding the taunter’s blood. If he is out of reach, his or her closest male relation must suffer the penalty instead. Badal may lead to blood feuds that can last generations and involve whole tribes with the loss of hundreds of lives. Normally blood feuds in this male-dominated society are settled in a number of ways.[4]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pashtunwali

And people wonder why they stormed a school if some of their own children have been killed?

an example of how Britain has **** up the world on a far greater scale than Nazi Germany ever managed

Beneath contempt. Time for a thread closure, methinks.

Beneath contempt. Time for a thread closure, methinks

How many serious ongoing problems in this world are a direct consequence of Germany’s actions and how many are a consequence of ours?

The answer is

Germany – Zero
Britain – Dozens

Every time I read about some serious feud or sectarian conflict, the British empire manages to turn up in the story.

Heard that the Taliban hierarchy said “…they were only meant to kill teachers and older students, not children…” – well that’s all-****ing-right then 😡

It scares the bejeezus out of me to think what kind of world mcobie junior is being born into 🙁

Read this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pashtunwali

then this

The recent interview on television of Islamic scholar Javed Ghamidi in which he attributed the Taliban’s beheading and stoning to death to tribal Pashtun culture has triggered a debate on social media. Ghamidi further said that even a child in the tribal belt could behead with ease. These indeed were very callous remarks from a supposedly good religious scholar.

There is no denying the fact that the Pashtun belt in Pakistan, and across the fence, has been a fertile ground for terrorism for more than three decades but the factors that contributed to terrorism were mostly foreign. Analysts blame the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in which the Afghans generally and the Pashtuns especially became sandwiched between the US and the Soviet Union. It is widely believed that the Pashtuns are on the wrong side of history, inhabiting a place of strategic importance that has witnessed onslaughts from all major forces in recent history.
We should not forget that the major players in the civil war after the Soviet withdrawal from Afghanistan were mostly Pashtuns. Later, the Taliban, who were ethnically Pashtun, emerged on the scene and excelled their predecessors in wreaking havoc. Apart from their despicable attitude towards women, the destruction of two Buddha statues in Bamyan was an unforgivable act by the Taliban. However, the machinations and influence of the deep state cannot be condoned. The point here is not to single out the Pashtuns and declare the rest of Pakistanis a very enlightened lot — they have their own lashkars (militias) of holy warriors — but we Pashtuns need introspection and need to seek answers to the question: why has our land become a breeding ground for terrorism? Is it geography, our love for militant Islam, our tribal culture or our trigger-happy temperament that brings us this ‘distinction’?

I hear commentators who mostly attribute this problem to lack of education, poverty, post-9/11 developments and the military operations in Swat and the tribal areas. These factors might somehow have contributed but it is time to look at this from a different perspective as well. Non-local experts on terrorism generally ignore, or basically fail to understand, the important role Pashtun culture plays in promoting extremism. A Pashtun lives in a closed culture that is religiously conservative too. A male chauvinistic culture, which gives no freedom of expression or dissent, pushes youngsters to become reactionaries. When faced with real life challenges, the Pashtuns respond emotionally rather than rationally. Another damaging aspect of this culture is a social acceptance of bullies. Everyone, from teachers to the mullah and uncles to fathers, acts like a bully and instills a sense of fear, thereby creating an overwhelming sense of paranoia among Pashtun children.

A Pashtun can better understand what has led to the degeneration of his culture. This culture has now become ossified, as not only has it lost its good traits but also the capacity to be in synch with modernisation. Many factors have contributed to this cultural decadence like its inherent weakness and the onslaught of Wahabi militant and rigid Islam, which heavily invested in the Pashtun belt for more than three decades. However, the most damaging blow was given by the Tabligh-e-Jamaat (TeJ), which excelled even Wahabism in bringing about cultural closeness, pushing young Pashtuns away from cultural activities and killing their desire to become active members of society. The TeJ discourages cultural gatherings, fairs and festivals and considers music and dances, the cultural manifestations of the area, to be evil acts. It even demonised laughter — a sign of life — and said that a hearty laugh extinguishes a celestial light in the human heart.

The role of the media, especially the Urdu media, has been very negative in its stereotyping: its demonisation and generalisation of the Pashtuns has put them at a loss for their identity. The perception that Mr Ghamidi has is that the Pashtuns are generally savages, backward, and cannot assimilate in the mainstream culture — this perception is pushing middle-class, educated Pashtuns into the hands of the militants. The media does not paint with the same brush when it comes to militants in Punjab.

Political activity has been an effective instrument in engaging people. The initiative to allow political parties to operate freely for the first time in FATA is a belated but right step and will help lessen the grip of militancy in the region. Critics argue that the lack of reforms has alienated tribesmen and made it easier for militant networks to recruit young men to fight the Pakistani government and to avenge a covert US drone war. However, it is wrong to assume that people are drifting into terrorism just because their family members are being killed in drone attacks.

Geography has a role in making the Pashtun belt fertile for religious-based militancy. With armed tribes in the Pak-Afghan rugged mountains, weak government control, the three decades long war theatre, smuggling, the drugs-based economy and the non-existent political culture, militancy has fomented on both sides of our porous western border. Physical geography cannot be changed but mindsets can be. As Maria Robinson puts it, “Nobody can go back and start a new beginning but anyone can start today and make a new ending.”

It is time we start today for a new era of peace and prosperity. The next step after implementing the Political Parties Act should aim at giving provincial status to FATA and doing away with the garrison and strategic depth mentality. This mindless hunt for strategic depth in FATA and Afghanistan has irreparably weakened the country. Pashtuns need to be integrated into the mainstream to play a role in the progress and development of this country instead of seeing them as savages like Ghamidi did. Bombs and bullets cannot defeat terrorism. We have seen that deterrence can be effective on a short term basis; it is the long term process of development and dialogue that needs to be initiated to make the Pashtun land infertile for extremism and fertile for openness and tolerance.

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/opinion/25-Feb-2014/terrorism-and-the-pashtun-belt

A pretty **** up part of the world isn’t it, that breeds very, very hard individuals.

It scares the bejeezus out of me to think what kind of world mcobie junior is being born into

The safest, healthiest and most secure world humanity has ever known?

It scares the bejeezus out of me to think what kind of world mcobie junior is being born into

the ability to be able to visualise your own child in that situation is a pretty horrible one but the truth is that kids now are being born into a world that suffers similar level of brutality and barbarism as there’s ever been. We just probably are more aware of what it’s like now than we would have been when at a time when our parents were growing up.

Every time I read about some serious feud or sectarian conflict, the British empire manages to turn up in the story.

Tom does have a good point all told, from colonial genocide all over the world, to slavery, to continued initiation of conflict through covert means, the footprint of Britain leaves a dark legacy which is generally buried through sugar coated propaganda.

The vast majority of people are good, but a proportion of all our taxes goes toward perpetuating the arms trade, war and oppression which fuels horrific incidents such as this latest massacre.

In no way do I condone what the Pakistan Taliban did but for years the US have used continual Drone strikes with the colatral damage that comes with it. The US should review its policy on drone strikes in light of Pakistani families now suffering, in part due to US policy.

In addition why did it take 8hours to subdue 7 men who were actively shooting children from the start with an Army barracks so close by?

Now the Pakistani army has to deal with the Taliban ASAP and bring swift justice. What a horrible situation and the perpitrators are not Muslims. It was a disgusting attack.

The Bureau of Investigative Journalism (TBIJ), an independent journalist organization. TBIJ reports that from June 2004 through mid-September 2012, available data indicate that drone strikes killed 2,562-3,325 people in Pakistan, of whom 474-881 were civilians, including 176 children.[3] TBIJ reports that these strikes also injured an additional 1,228-1,362 individuals.

In addition why did it take 8hours to subdue 7 men who were actively shooting children from the start with an Army barracks so close by?

Generally, soldiers don’t like getting killed. So I should imagine clearing out 7 nutters from a school room by room would be a fairly lengthy process.

Tom does have a good point all told, from colonial genocide all over the world, to slavery, to continued initiation of conflict through covert means, the footprint of Britain leaves a dark legacy which is generally buried through sugar coated propaganda.

Odd how so few of those concerned share this view?

Two teachers lost their lives through be burned to death on different sides of the world yesterday – terrible stories both, but this destroys the overly simplistic causation links to things like religion (ok I know that is a STW thing, but….)

Tom (and semi-OT) if there was a Kenyan mall etc event and the British Army was present due to training they’d go in. The British armed Police would have different protocols? All down to training. I imagine the Pakistani army ground Commanders would wait/not sure rather than be dynamic?

Odd how so few of those concerned share this view?

They won’t be any the wiser thanks to

initiation of conflict through covert means

Of course, placing all the burden on Britain these days is overly simplistic (although many of the most powerful bankers and nobility who have been benefiting from this kind of enterprise since the days of slavery and privateers are still based here) but the same general principles of stir tensions, provide weapons and demonize the enemy to divide and conquer were exported to the colonies and evolved into the situations which have been brewing throughout our lifetimes.

Tom (and semi-OT) if there was a Kenyan mall etc event and the British Army was present due to training they’d go in. The British armed Police would have different protocols? All down to training. I imagine the Pakistani army ground Commanders would wait/not sure rather than be dynamic?

No they wouldn’t, it would be left to the Kenyans. Killing 7 heavily armed war hardened loons who want to die and know the army is coming, who are armed with machine guns, grenades and bombs, holding a building with hundreds of rooms that was designed to be secure is an entirely different kettle of fish to assaulting a cafe with an idiot carrying a shotgun, or even the bunch of idiots that held up the Iranian embassy.

That school was full of the local officers children, so I think it’s a little ridiculous to insinuate that they didn’t want to to their jobs properly.

No one can hold that school/buildings with 7 people if a properly trained force attacked. Its disorganisation, training and plain fear that will have held their Army back.

It was a compound and there were still kids held up inside meaning that they would have had to check their fire. You have to deal with fleeing wounded children, booby traps, withering machine gun fire, grenades, maybe RPGs and you have to make sure you don’t shoot the wrong people. Once you’ve managed to enter a large building like that, it then takes hours to methodically clear each room and declare the place safe.

Even the Russians, who are hardened and have well trained special forces had issues coping with this. We’d fare little better if this happened on our own soil. In fact, it’s arrogant to think we would.

If this ever happened in London, hundreds would be dead before even a couple of met officers turned up with carbines and sod all ammo.

I was going to keep out of this….

Aside from the usual condemnations, explanations, expression of horror etc. What I find interesting is the ability of otherwise rational peaceful people to completely put aside their morals and beliefs and accept a militaristic justification of killing innocents. I’m not talking about the taliban, they’re obviously nut-jobs created either by religious/ideological zeal and/or decades of violence, I’m talking about us. We have in the west an unparalleled ability to compartmentalise and justify violence on a scale that the taliban can only dream of, on the basis that an elected government and a professional and highly trained military tell us that it’s ok because somehow it’s for the greater good and/or for our own protection. The end result is the same as anything the taliban or their nutter friends in ISIS get up to, indeed often it’s many time worse. Yet we willingly accept it, and then un-ironically watch in horror when these things appear on our tv screens. It’s very strange and baffling, and I don’t think I’ll ever get my head around it.