The problem is people. Not religion.

Religion is merely amongst the vehicles they used to en mass support.

What kind of world do we live in when this kind of thing happens?

The same world we have always lived in unfortunately. One where we invest unimaginable resources into the development and manufacture of machines with the sole purpose of killing as many of us as efficiently as we can.

We all subside this industry, and we all profit from the sale of these machines to groups of people who then use them on others. The only surprise to me is that this kind of thing doesn’t happen more often.

Maybe if hits our doorstep we will do something about it, if it’s not too late by then. In the meantime we can keep our heads firmly buried in the sand.

but I don’t think you can compare bombing of cites in war to the specific targeting and cruel killing of kids in a school

Unless you’ve been carrying an AK47 since you were strong enough to pick it up, and until you’ve maybe seen your family members butchered in front of you, and until you’ve seen nothing but war and death and fear and dreamt of nothing but war and death and fear, then I think you’re probably like an ant trying to compare a bowl of sugar and the mathematical principals of quantum physics

your sensationalist posts are all very thought-provoking yunki, genuinely, but do you have any actions/ solutions? or do we all just sit here in a fog of despair and futility?

is it sensationalist though brakes?
really!?

Of course I don’t have a solution.. jeez
And yes we just sit here and contemplate the futility.. we go to work tomorrow, enjoy Christmas and will have forgotten all about any of this by NYE..

What are you planning to do about it?
I suppose you’re heading out there on the first available flight to tell them they’re all very naughty boys
what a silly post 😆

EDIT: sorry.. that was a bit uncalled for.. I really don’t have a clue what to do about it.. I will give it some thought this evening though

The root is religion. They’re all forms of societal conditioning.

Disagree, way I see it is it’s way more fundamental than just ‘religion’. The root is a dogmatic in-group/out-group psycho-social dynamic.

Dogmatic/organised religion is just one (albeit enormously powerful) vehicle for this. When you build a family around religious doctrine, and then a village, and a town and a city…

Apostates are political dissidents are fifth columnists are ‘filthy foreigners’

A cynic might say the only reason we don’t take that approach in the Middle East is because we need to maintain access to the oil.

Although it’s a global market and what happens in one place will affect another. Almost all Middle East oil goes East to China, not Europe or the USA. We could fall out with them to our hearts content, they could ban shipments to the west and there’d be little impact.

Hard as it seems for conspiracy theorists to accept, western intervention in the area may well be intended* for the good of the people living there and/or preventing terrorism.

*that’s not the same as the result though.

what a silly post

not really, I am genuinely at a loss as to what we, as individuals, can do about this and whether I would be prepared to do anything selfless if I was asked.

I know… hence my apology

sorry

They’re all forms of societal conditioning.

Like “Reality TV”.

Regardless of the argument and bumpf around the rationale;
84 children. 84. Just little kids, like ours, going to school.
**** hell.

A terrible act but it seems a mistake to blame Drone Strikes

This about a group fighting for territory and spreading its way of doing things. The West isn’t the target here is it. Its the moderate majority in that country

Nahhh, attacking a school full of kids is personal. Those that carried out the attack had an axe to grind as opposed to objectives to achieve. Perhaps both.

one mans freedom fighter…

…is another man’s arsehole?

ahh the good old religion of peace is at it again i see…bless em

Sorry but that’s a bullshit point of view, formed from your cosy safe brick house, in your peaceful street, surrounded by luxury and with the biggest danger in your life perhaps your daily commute..

Nope its not a bullshit point of view at all, its my opinion based on knowing what is right and wrong. Believe it or not, I’m not an idiot and can well see why some of what we call ‘terrorism’ can be justified by many people.

I have a close friend brought up in Pakistan and likewise one from Gaza. Both are disgusted by this and share a very similar viewpoint on it to myself.
Likewise, What are the rest of Pakistan saying about it I wonder? Is anyone out there trying to justify it, or are they sickened by it as much as me?

Bear in mind we’re not talking about bombing an army base, firing rockets into israel, or even planting a bomb to kill civilians. This is the deliberate target and murder of children. There are plenty of ‘terrorists’ in the world, but I can think of very few that have stooped to doing this. Yet you are trying to justify it?

So whilst you can dismiss my viewpoint as much as you like, given (I assume) you also grew up in a comfy brick house listening to radio 4, your opinion is no more valid than mine…

Bear in mind we’re not talking about bombing an army base, firing rockets into israel, or even planting a bomb to kill civilians. This is the deliberate target and murder of children. There are plenty of ‘terrorists’ in the world, but I can think of very few that have stooped to doing this. Yet you are trying to justify it?

Someone I know gunned down a group of kids from a chopper after someone fired at them from within the group.

“It is the tragedian’s task, then, to force us to confront an almost unbearable truth: every folly or myopia of which any human being in history has been guilty may be traced back to some aspect of our collective nature. Because we each bear within ourselves the whole of the human condition, in its worst and best aspects, any one of us might be capable of doing anything at all, or nothing, under the right—or rather the most horribly wrong—conditions” – Alain de Botton

slowoldman – Member

…is another man’s arsehole?
😆

deliberate target and murder of children. There are plenty of ‘terrorists’ in the world, but I can think of very few that have stooped to doing this

the USA in Hiroshima and Nagasaki for example.

Or the RAF at Dresden. Desperate people will do appalling things why is this more shocking than anything else. The point for me isn’t that this has occurred it’s why it’s being reported in the way that it is.

Yeah but when we deliberately target kids it’s ‘I-can’t-believe-it’s-not-terrorism’ because we do it for democracy and it’s swept under the carpet, when they do it it’s called terrorism because they are dirty theists who do it so they can carry on humping goats.

We obviously do it for far more noble reasons, the Taliban do it with more panache and honesty though, I’ll give them that.

There are plenty of ‘terrorists’ in the world, but I can think of very few that have stooped to doing this

Just from the past couple of decades I can think of half a dozen groups that have killed and abducted children for political reasons. Boko Haram, The LRA, The Chechen sepratists, the Hutusin Rwanda, The Taliban previously, The PDF. It’s unpleasant but it’s hardly unprecedented or even especially rare.

based on knowing what is right and wrong

which is something you learned from your cosy viewpoint..

As I said in my post I’m not trying to justify it, just find it a bit odd that we think we can pass judgement based on values that we developed from our life experience..
The life experience of the people that carried out the act is not something that we can comprehend..
But if you can’t grasp that simple concept then I shouldn’t really expect you to bother reading my post properly, or interpreting it in any way other than is most comfortable for you..

Anyway.. I’m orf to the pub fellas

ciao 🙂

This is doubtless a horrific and barbaric attack, but as many have said in the thread already, it is part of a bigger picture; from drone strikes, to the CIA funding and training the Taliban in the 1st place:

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYvO3qAlyTg[/video]

The real evil comes in the form of the western intelligence services and the military industrial media complex.

Stir tensions, provide weapons, demonize

Same cycle been played out again and again, but as global media has progressed, so has the depth of manipulation.

The same people have been profiting throughout, be it from arms sales, private military firms or indeed selling newspapers.

Carlyle Group, Halliburton, Blackwater, ArmourGroup, NewsCorp etc etc are all complicit in the scenarios which lead to such tragedy and perpetuate hatred and war.

Behind the mask of these faceless corporations, all too often you’ll find the same politicians who make the case for war.

As for this demonstrating how particularly vile these killers are to attack children and teachers in a school, and they must be that way because of religious indoctrination, I give you:

A Norwegian on an island where a summer camp was being held.
A guy in the north of England.
Many, many white, christian Americans who’ve shot their way through schools.

The difference in Pakistan is that there is a possible explanation.

Could add to that mix the Dunblane Shootings, which by many accounts were related to a paedophile ring involving VIPs at the Queen Victoria School, a Military Boarding School under the patronage of Prince Philip.

Odd that some documents surrounding the incident are so restricted they have a 100 year ban.

I did read your post

As I said in my post I’m not trying to justify it

well actually you said this….

I dunno if I’m trying to justify what happened, but I am a bit sickened that we can sit here in our safe little cotton wool wrapped lives passing judgement on people who have endured decades no, centuries of violent military persecution

I understand exactly what you meant in your first post, I simply didn’t agree that any right minded individual would see that as justification to carry out this act, regardless of background. Many in Pakistam have suffered just as badly, yet there is near unanimous condemnation of this act.

Can you not accept this point of view and rational without resorting to trying to insult me?

As for being’sickened’ that someone like myself in my cosy house could possibly see fit to pass judgement on people that have killed 108 innocent schoolkids. I think you’re going to be in the very small minority on that one i’m afraid.

enjoy your pint!

Just driving home from nursery with my 4 year old had radio 4 on (cuz i is dead posh init) I wasnt really listening until anagallis junior said, “why did the children get killed” couldnt really explain why.

Well there will be unanimous condemnation from government sources, anyone who doesn’t want to get arrested or simply disposed of, the press if they want to go on printing, the media if they want to go on broadcasting. I reckon that even the villagers who’ve lost loved one to drones would condemn the acts rather than have the next drone head their way.

It’s unrealistic to expect anyone to show any understanding at all in public in Pakistan. If you find analysis and an ability to understand all is not black and white anywhere it will be on a bike forum in a country where you don’t get shot for stating the blindingly obvious.

Edit: I won’t be enjoying a pint because 1/ I don’t drink (well rarely before anyone suspects I’m a … .) 2/ like Woppit I’ve found the events sickening.

The difference in Pakistan is that there is a possible explanation.

Indeed, but it might not be one that you think. Maybe it’s a bunch of sickos who get off on horrendous violence? What is often lost in all the arguing about religion, ideology, history and the like is the question of how the vast majority of the same people who have had the same influences don’t butcher kids in cold blood.

Indeed, but it might not be one that you think. Maybe it’s a bunch of sickos who get off on horrendous violence? What is often lost in all the arguing about religion, ideology, history and the like is the question of how the vast majority of the same people who have had the same influences don’t butcher kids in cold blood.

That doesn’t mean they don’t support it though.

Support for terrorism is pretty high in both Afghanistan and parts of Pakistan, maybe deliberately targeting a school is going a bit to far for those supporters but kids get blown up in non targeted attacks as well….and they are okay with that.

Hopefully potential radicals will see this and think twice about signing up.

You cannot be so naive to completely disconnect religion from terrorism. Not in Islamic fundamentalism, Christian fundamentalism or any other religious fuelled fundamentalism. Religion is the mechanism by which people justify good deeds as well as bad, it’s intertwined and you cannot pick and choose where it’s influence applies or it doesn’t. You cannot ignore the religious element in dealing with the root cause of acts like these and it has to be dealt with. As far as this latest atrocity goes, these people didn’t have an issue with drone strikes or Blair, they’ve come out and said its in retaliation to Pakistani military operations in the region, so Pakistanis defending their own country from these Taliban thugs. You cannot even begin to try to justify or appease these actions to make a cheap political point about your own views on Blair or drone strikes. Shame on you for doing so. Actions like these can only be unconditionally condemned by any decent person. There is no more deplorable act that people can do to others. I’m deliberately not using the te Human as these people ceased to be human the moment they conceived of this act.

Drones are very much a part of the Pakistani governments offensive in the region. An integral part of the attacks which they claim cost less civilian lives per militant killed than ground attacks. The drones are either Pakistani or American operating on information (I would say on orders)of the Pakistani government.

Poor kids. 🙁

Not the “evil” word again.

Horrific atrocities committed daily, in perpetuity, by human people.

South Sudan, currently, Syria, currently, Mexico, currently.

Perhaps I have “evil fatigue”. In truth, I’ve found ruminations on the worst in “humanity” has led me nowhere but down a misanthropic, miserable road.

I’ll worry about assisting midwives working at refugee camps: Saving as many lives together as were lost in the Pakistan massacre. If there’s evil, I’m **** focusing on the hope.

What is often lost in all the arguing about religion, ideology, history and the like is the question of how the vast majority of the same people who have had the same influences don’t butcher kids in cold blood.

Excellent point and too easily forgotten. The people doing this are the minority, even among the Taliban.

The smaller the coffin, the heavier it is to carry

What a poignant turn of phrase from the Pakistani Defence Minister.

I won’t be enjoying a pint because 1/ I don’t drink (well rarely before anyone suspects I’m a … .) 2/ like Woppit I’ve found the events sickening.

That was aimed at yunki! And for no other reason than he said he was going for a beer and(after our disagreement) I was trying to be pleasant 🙂

Just popping in to paste this from Reddit’s ELI5 (Explain Like I’m 5) sub:

ELI5: The Taliban just killed 130 people in a school, mostly children. Why is that somehow part of a rational strategy for them? How do they justify that to themselves?

The larger context right now is being ignored. Since June the Pakistani military has been conducting a military offensive in the Northwest Frontier Provinces. This area often called the FATA district is home to various Pakistani Taliban groups and tribal groups ( like the Mehsuds and Wazirs) with shifting allegiances. The Pakistani Taliban is influenced by A) Deobandi Islamism which is a Southeast Asian variation of radical Islam: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deobandi%5B1%5D B) and its dominant influence is the Pashtun tribal ethos of Pashtunwali: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pashtunwali%5B2%5D

These two influences have shaped Taliban religious and political ideology. Now, 80 % of the Taliban are Pashtuns, while Pakistan is divided into various ethnic and regional groups ( like Sindhs, Punjabis)..The Pashtuns are also in Afghanistan as the Durrand Line ( the border between Pakistan/Afghanistan) cuts between their ethnic ” homeland”. They don’t identify with the state of Pakistan. Now, since the operation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Zarb-e-Azb%5B3%5D was launched since the breakdown of the ceasefire with the Taliban and PM Nawaz Sharif’s gov’t and the Jinnah int’l airport attack in June, The Taliban consider the use of attacks on children and schools as a means of exacting revenge which is a major important thing in Pashtun culture. They see the deaths of their tribesmen as something that justifies these barbaric attacks. They have been scattered now into various cities in Pakistan as well, which makes it more dangerous. The Pakistani Taliban are at war with the government in Islamabad. I would also like to add that the Taliban attacked an ARMY school, which means these kids were children of soldiers who were fighting in the NWFP. The tribes the Taliban protect there lost many children to the Pakistani military. This is cold blooded revenge for the Taliban at the same time sending a message to the Pakistani military to stay out of ” their” territory.

Edit: I am also going to add a Wiki link to the areas where the Pashtun people predominate. If you notice its in the area of the border region: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pashtun_people#mediaviewer/File:Pashtun_Language_Location_Map.svg%5B4%5D

Edit 2: Wow.Thanks for the gold! I am only doing my duty as someone with a History degree. If you want some good sources I suggest two readings:
http://yalepress.yale.edu/book.asp?isbn=9780300178845%5B5%5D
http://www.theguardian.com/books/2011/may/01/pakistan-hard-country-anatol-lieven-review%5B6%5D

Edit 3: I wanted to clarify that my statements are not demeaning to Pashtun culture or to Pashtun people. I hope you don’t take offense. Most Pashtun are not Taliban. My point being was that most Taliban are Pashtun. I want to explain the socioeconomic and historical circumstances of a great people within the context of why the Taliban continue to exert influence.

– Sauce.