So you’ve tabled it, we’ve established it’s wrong. Job done?

It’s was an interesting, to me, comment on democracy and relevant to the discussion on money having an undue influence on democracy via party donations as individuals. The argument was that the opposite may be true.

@thestabliser – what about the Unions ? They actually have their own political party in Labour (historically certainly and still very influential). Are they powerful as they represent large numbers of people (votes, sounds democratic) or collectively because they made a large donation (money, sounds less democratic) ? same same or same different as my Asian friends and colleagues would say ?

So the argument might go cut out the middle man (the donor/organisation) and just have your vote weighted by the amount of tax you pay. Its transparent.

The unions and labour movement were established for the specific purpose of establishing influence over the deomcaratic process because the wealthy and establishment ‘owned’ parliament. Their donations enable the work of thr labour party which is to represent the interests of the working class by pursuing a socialist agenda (at least that’s how it used to work). The idea being (as it was with democracy in the first place) one man one vote. You’ve got tax and entitlement to a say in society very confused. How you get from your second paragraph to the statement at the end of your post is unclear. There is no proportional relationship and if you’re a net giver then good for you, you get to see the societal benefit of your ‘largesse’ through the fact that the serfs aren’t eating each others babies.

From my view :

1. The media massively overhypes UKIP
2. Labour needs to pull its finger out
3. Lib dems are finished
4. The Tories are crumbling away and no one seems to have noticed in all the fuss

I don’t think this was an anti immigration vote ( the uk isn’t massively anti immigration, certain elements if the press are, but most regular folk aren’t) I think it was a ‘not the same old suit and tie’ vote

@nickc

1) media tried to ignore / mock UKIP, now they are first in polls they have to take note.
2) yes, they are lost currently
3) very badly damaged, recent by elections persuaded then that he coalition hadn’t hurt them but it has IMO
4) don’t agree, they are currently a bit lost as per Labour

I do think this was a vote against uncontrolled immigration and the EU post the euro crises and all the bailouts. Rescuing banks is one thing but rescuing other countries who borrowed too much ? It’s been a financial and PR disaster for the EU.

1. True and does not scrutinise sufficiently
2. Still in the lead just, but policy messages (MK III) eroded by events. Need a MK IV but currently in pole position despite weak leader. Stalking horses keeping their heads down wisely at the moment.
3. Still a possible joker come the GE. Hard to see it now but may still hold some balance of power come 2015
4. Doing better in polls and closing gap with labour despite only partial policy successes. How can they be crumbling away when they are closing the gaps and largely similar in votes recently? Plus the long predicted (on here) joker of the economy confounding expectations on the upside may still work in their favour.

Europe cannot survive without either (1) partial or complete abandonment of the € and/or (2) much closer integration including fiscal integration,

The popular vote seems anti (2) therefore (1) has to happen it’s only a matter off time. So the whole EU debate in the UK is likely to be completely redundant as the status quo cannot by definition exist in its current format. Ca, c’est evident.

To me it is much more obvious but much harder for the main political parties to admit it is the UK political system that is broken. The Scotland issue being the main pointer as that is as much about lack of representation as nationalism but the Scots have something to hang it on. I think that would be the thing I would offer as an alternative to the yes vote but the main political parties are too stuck in their existing ways and the voters are convinced that any politics is about gravy trains and bureaucracy not changing things for the better.

The conservatives seem to be quite happily getting on with changing things but I am not sure anybody voted for the privatisation max they are carrying out or like it.

Privatisation max – I must have missed that.

I agree that there are problems with the political system but they merely mirror wider problems. We/most of us have been the generations that have grown up on the illusion of debt – bring forward consumption today but delay payment into the never-never. Plus we had outcomes that largely exceeded expectations throughout our lifetimes. Now it’s pay back time and literally (this time) payment has to be bought forward and consumption delayed plus outcomes will be below falsely high expectations for the current younger generation.

You have to be a bloody smart politician to square that circle. But let’s hope that they teach you something in PPE otherwise dangerous forces are being unleashed that will not have a happy ending.

THM re my point 4

20 years since they won a majority, 9 years of Cameron leadership and 4 years since they failed to win an election against one of the most unpopular labour govt in years. Labour trounced them in London and UKIP trounced them in the shires, and they continue to not grow any support amongst young and minority voters

If milliband has got an uphill struggle next GE, Cameron’s position is arguably worse

Cue Boris?

if Nigel’s lot do win (unlikely imo, but you never know) in Newark then i expect Boris might be making a move.

The UK and Europe are lurching to the nationalistic right in large numbers.

What, at root, is driving this?

What would make huge swathes of voters want to attend to border and security issues in such large numbers?

What is the

Zombie maggots.

One of our local cafes is run by Cypriots.
Even they are moaning about immigrants.

What would make huge swathes of voters want to attend to border and security issues in such large numbers?

I seriously think they are just plain stupid. They don’t vote based on anything but “Ooh UKIP, I’ve heard of them” (probably 80%(ish) of the vote).

i think they have bough the media fed effect that the real reason for all their problems are foreigners/immigrants when in reality the real reason – zero hours contracts, MW/low wages, “flexible working”, high unemployment etc are the result of capitalism and right wing ideologies within the labour market

They are essentially scapegoating other poor people rather than getting angry at the real target who caused all this.
The powers that be [ whomever they might be] would rather see a high vote for Farage and UKIP [ he is one of them anyway] than see the riots against bankers that was St Pauls

Give the people someone to hate and unite them behind that hatred.

@DezB it really is the EU and in particular the free movement of people within it, ie immigration.

@Junkyard, most people don’t watch the news or read the papers. They are reacting to what they see.

EDIT: By the way there weren’t any riots at St Pauls, I went down there a few times. There where a few speeches but mostly just sitting about. It was such a laugh that so many protestors went home to sleep in their own beds at night but left their tents there. Hardly a protest of any great conviction was it ?

Europe cannot survive without either (1) partial or complete abandonment of the € and/or (2) much closer integration including fiscal integration,

@tmh the EU will stall and fudge until such a point as closer integration including fiscal is politically acceptable. I would suspect that new euro members don’t get the free run Greece had to do whatever they wanted.

Pot holes
Bins
Immigrants

The three cornerstones of electoral focus grouping.

Macro economics
Social justice
Foreign Policy

What we should be voting on. But to be honest I haven’t got a clue about them. So you can take your bin emptying foreigners and fill potholes with ’em.

Noting to do with this, then…

Jambalaya, IMO this is the mistake that the EU wiliest are making. The required level of integration is not acceptable to most people. The EU elite need or respond. The recovery has already stalled and social tensions remain v high. The € cannot survive with fudges too much longer.

@THM I fear the euro will survive very much longer with continued fudges, it would be much better fixed properly or disposed of but the former isn’t acceptable to the voters and the latter isn’t acceptable to the politicians (and probably the voters of Spain and Italy as without the euro their public debt burden is unsustainable)

Then Europe is in for a long period of poor growth. The required adjustment in the periphery countries is being driven by dramatic reductions in wages COMBINED with high unemployment. The results are still poor hence the need for European QE which will only fuel an asset bubble since EU banks are still largely buggered. A horror story that is as sad as it is inevitable.

Politicians can keep their fingers in the dyke for only so long…..

This country is so messed up with regards to looking after its own people that you have rely on the EU to be the responsible parent. And only 40,000 employed in EU operations, which is 60,000 less than HMRC employ, and still crap at tax collecting.

BBC NEWS Today: HMRC Tax Crackdown yields record yield from investigations into tax avoidance

This country is not messed up with rewards to looking after it’s own people (whatever own means). It does a good job in absolute and relative terms. Not to say that it can’t be improved but it’s not messed up….