but the answer is not (IMO) to all fall into line behind Boris and Rees-Mogg and pretend that Brexit is Beautiful.

That’s my point, Varoufakis was elected on a populist mandate to deliver the impossible, by the time he realised it wasn’t going to happen it was too late, brexies seem to be repeating same mistakes

I think the constant remoaning and division merely makes the likelihood of worst case scenarios coming true more likely

Why? In what way does complaining about the incompetence of the govt hinder them in coming up with a constructive and coherent plan?

We have to deal with the world as it is, not as it was in 1953. Or in Rees Moggs case 1853

Why? In what way does complaining about the incompetence of the govt hinder them in coming up with a constructive and coherent plan?

U can go back to May’s Lancaster house speech and the Tory conference last year with its anti-immigration theme to see where the government were setting the divisive tone, they’d still be carrying on in that vein if us remoaners hasn’t whinged loud enough 😉

It is possible the is one, just one upside to Brexit. 😯

Iannucui is editor of big issue next week- he’s going to have a Brexit interview of Malcolm Tucker by Alan Partridge 😀

s not a zero sum game.

On the contrary Dr. The EU is very clear that the UK must be seen to lose. So while I agree with you in theory and in aspiration (we should look for a win:win), the reality is completely different. It is very much a zero sum game in their eyes with only one winner. The project.

Acting with integrity on the rights of EU nationals will not leave us worse off.

It’s irrelevant. You are talking about an body that has been very happy to ride roughshod over the rights and needs of EU nationals with catastrophic economic and social consequences. The EU does not place nice with its own let alone third country citizens. Forgetting that is extreme folly.

Brexshit is bad enough

Brexshit reflects some of this reality. The majority of voters feel that their interests are best served outside the EU. The behaviour of the EU is one reason historically and their current intransigence merely provides courage to the Brexshiteers

Re JRM and Bojo, I have made my views clear before. I have little time for the positions of either extremes of the Tories and Labour. My ideal scenario would be a cross party coalition with the mandate to deliver Brexshit with the minimal loss. That would be led by the relatively same ones such as Starmer and Hammond and the beaurocrats behind them. Despite the fact that Labour and the Toires are singing from the same hymn sheet, the likelihood of is happening is less than zero.

But that simply reflects the crass and petty party allegiances that dominate UK politics and society. Does more harm than good. But there we are…..common sense is in very short supply

The EU is very clear that the UK must be seen to lose

I agree how will our unity change this especially as you say they dont care about their own citizens never mind third party ones?

“Acting with integrity on the rights of EU nationals will not leave us worse off. “

It’s irrelevant. You are talking about an body that has been very happy to ride roughshod over the rights and needs of EU nationals with catastrophic economic and social consequences. The EU does not place nice with its own let alone third country citizens. Forgetting that is extreme folly.

It is relevant to who we are. Are we happy to behave disgracefully towards people just because the EU may have done likewise on some other occasion? As you know from other topics I am no fan of the EU but that does not mean that I support behaving like an arse vis a vis EU nationals.

Dare I say it, but I think you are exaggerating – reading too many of Eds diatribes. There is very little between the status quo and what we are saying – hence my link to the the Home Office doc on how this works currently.

I tried to get my head around the concept of what it means to be a third country citizens but TBH failed to fully get to grips with it. But based on my knowledge of third country equivalence in other areas, I assume that it is also an imperfect substitute for what rights we have now.

Frankly, the duty of the U.K. Gov is first and foremost to protect the interests if UK citizens. If that requires some bargaining then so be it in my mind. It’s a dirty business dealing with EU politics. Taking the imaginary moral high ground would mean zip in reality if the interests of Uk citizens are not protected. As I said before the EU has no credit in the moral high ground account. To believe otherwise is extreme folly. Ask Yiannis

My ideal scenario would be a cross party coalition with the mandate to deliver Brexshit with the minimal loss

No Brexit at all would be my ideal scenario. Are you prepared to make that statement too, THM?

No, unlike you, I respect the democratic process. Your intention is clear as are the means that you deem appropriate to deliver it, ranging from persistent misrepresentation of facts to advocating economic vandalism. That approach lies below those of the Brexshitters in my mind, which is a very low bar indeed.

A second referendum is the only acceptable answer. Until then we will keep on fighting and pointing out the absurdities of the governments lack of position.

Leaving the EU will cause enormous damage and already has done. It must be stopped. The collapse of this tory shambles is the first step

The problem is that is acceptable to those who oppose it but it wont be to about 50% of the population who will be livid and we have the same thing but reversed. There are no good ways out of this situation that include unity or a unified country.
Unlike THM I cannot get behind this madness anymore than he can get behind the madness of another referendum on it never mind what proper Brexies think.

I agree – but a second referendum with a nice remain vote which i am sure we would get with a half way decent campaign would shut up the hard core brexies – their ” the will of the people” shtik would be shown to be absurd and we would get to stay in the EU. Its the only outcome that is not disasterous

Misquoting again, THM. And accusing me of misrepresenting facts without justification – you failed to counter my assertion that the Good Friday agreement was incompatible with Brexit and the British government was in the process of tearing it up. Other people can read you know. All of them can read my posts but at least two of them have blocked you becuase you’re such a ****.

Edit: oh and thanks fro confirming you are in favour of Brexit and prefer Brexit to no Brexit, that makes you a Brexiter, which confirms what I’ve thought all along.

a nice remain vote which i am sure we would get with a half way decent campaign would shut up the hard core brexies

Nothing will shut them up as they hate the EU and would find it a betrayal. They would no more accept the result than Brexxies have, perhaps even less so.

Aye but they would no longer be able to claim the “will of the people” so would have nothing but moaning to do and would soon lapse back into the lunatic fringes from whence they came

just like remoaners have?

The consequences of Brexit will perhaps be insignificant compared with dividing a previously fairly harmonious population in two. Previous divides in British society:

rich – poor
the class system
north – south
old – young
right – left

people lived with, and it was easy to categorise almost everyone you met. We now have an invisible divide that is more divisive than any issue I’ve followed on this forum.

It’s natural I don’t get on with THM, on the above divides I’m on the other side of every one of them. But there’s only one that makes me use ************s, Brexit.

Edit: oh and thanks fro confirming you are in favour of Brexit and prefer Brexit to no Brexit, that makes you a Brexiter, which confirms what I’ve thought all along.

QED – thank you for confirming my point.

“Thought” – there’s a big assumption there.

. you’re such a ****.

And you are a genuine charmer with such a way with words. Thank you .

A second referendum is the only acceptable answer.

Spoken like a true defender of the project. Make them keep voting until they give in and give us the answer WE want not the one THEY want. They shall not have a say. This is the attitude that got us into this mess in the first place.

The collapse of this tory shambles is the first step

Don’t worry you WILL get a vote on that one and we can watch the Labour shambles do the same thing. THey are both committed to respecting the vote after all.

They shall not have a say. This is the attitude that got us into this mess in the first place.

Well if a referendum proves one thing it certainly that they did not have a say

My ideal scenario would be a cross party coalition with the mandate to deliver Brexshit with the minimal loss. That would be led by the relatively same ones such as Starmer and Hammond and the beaurocrats behind them. Despite the fact that Labour and the Toires are singing from the same hymn sheet, the likelihood of is happening is less than zero.

I’m sure some of us suggested that many pages back to which you scoffed that it was a bad idea…

Spoken like a true defender of the project. Make them keep voting until they give in and give us the answer WE want not the one THEY want. They shall not have a say. This is the attitude that got us into this mess in the first place.

Or in this place some actual options to vote on, to the letter of the referendum the UK could agree to pay the current budget contribution, endorse freedom of movement and trade with a simple reliquishing of control and sacking all our MEP’s.
Another option would include land mines in the channel and artilary on the White Cliffs with an application to join the USA.
The spectrum of Out vote was so wide attempting to gain even a decent % to one option would be tough.

I fully expect the EU to let May/Davis fumble and hang posturing and exhausting themselves trying to please everyone except the important people in the deal making.

Tick Tock as they say

The question of EU citizens is easily resolved with political will. The UK has been consistent in saying they are willing to take it off the table if equivalent rights are secured for UK citizens in Europe. Based on the negotiating grid I recently saw, we are pretty close to agreement (source: twitter feed of Chris Cook I think). So what is stopping this being agreed?

The EU is insistent on tying this issue in with other issues such as the budget and Northern Ireland, which is incredibly difficult. Surely if they actually cared for their citizens, they would be willing to agree it separately. The fact they are not willing suggests that they don’t, which explains why we are where we are.

That remoaner title makes me bloody moan. We put up with years of whinging from that racist pendejo Farage and the whining Eurosceptic self serving MPs. When I point out how I can see no positives what so ever in the whole Brexit shambles I get branded with some clever little tabloid coined moniker.

I am in the sad position now of feeling that Britain deserves all it gets from The EU for being such an arse of a country. We have cut off our nose to spite our face so we might as well do it properly and continue to cock the whole thing up.

Taxpayers’ money should not be spent on preparing for a “no-deal” Brexit, Chancellor Philip Hammond has said.
Writing in the Times ahead of next month’s Budget, Mr Hammond said he would spend only when it was “responsible” to do so.
The chancellor said he had a responsibility to be “realistic” about the challenges of leaving the EU.
His comments came after Theresa May refused to say on Tuesday how she would vote in another EU referendum.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-41577065

So when she said (or the papers reported) that the UK was working on a plan for a hard brexit were they doing it for free?

They shall not have a say. This is the attitude that got us into this mess in the first place.

That’s utter drivel, what got us into this mess is years of persistent lying about our relationship to the EU and what it does for us.

ah so we are back to the voters are too thick again. The lies were transparent, we should have been able to refute them and present a positive vision, We didn’t.. We lost. The rest is history

I’m sure some of us suggested that many pages back to which you scoffed that it was a bad idea…

I doubt that you will find evidence to support this since I have been a supporter of both Starmer and Hammond for some period. Happy to be corrected though….

The question of EU citizens is easily resolved with political will. The UK has been consistent in saying they are willing to take it off the table if equivalent rights are secured for UK citizens in Europe.

But Mefty, that doesn’t fit in with the important (false) narrative. It’s important to misrepresent our stance and undermine our position. Let’s not let facts get in the way.

But Mefty, that doesn’t fit in with the important (false) narrative. It’s important to misrepresent our position and undermine our position. Let’s not let facts get in the way.

It fits with needing to meet the 3 requests in order to progress that the UK agreed to.
People 0.8/1
Payment 0.7/1
Borders 0.001/1

Needs 3 ticks to progress.

ah so we are back to the voters are too thick again. The lies were transparent, we should have been able to refute them and present a positive vision, We didn’t.. We lost. The rest is history

Yes history – people are fighting for the future you seem not to be.

mefty – Member

The question of EU citizens is easily resolved with political will. The UK has been consistent in saying they are willing to take it off the table if equivalent rights are secured for UK citizens in Europe

Utter nonsense. Its the UK that has made the position of the people living in the UK with EU passports and vice versa in doubt.. The EU has consistently said that equivalent rights will be secured. Its the UK that are causing the stumbling block here not the EU. This started right at the beginning when May and Co refused to guarantee the rights of EU citizens – and we are miles from agreement because of the appalling way May and co want to treat EU citizens in the UK

This could have been settled in the first week with some flexibility from May and co – instead they still haven’t even got a consistent position from May and the rest of the idiots as to what the offer is to the EU on citizens and even the least combative position from the tories is totally unacceptable to anyone with a moral compass

Dare I say it, but I think you are exaggerating – reading too many of Eds diatribes. There is very little between the status quo and what we are saying – hence my link to the the Home Office doc on how this works currently.

No I don’t think so. As it stands an EU national can e.g. work here, work overseas and then come back, with no discussion of any “5 years continuous residence”. Post-Brexshit it appears that this criterion could be important, and so people who, in good faith, divided their lives between here and other EU countries may find the door slammed in their face.

On the contrary, I am focused 100% on the future. It’s others who are stuck “fighting” in the past. Another conf call on impact of Brexshit at 11:00 today….onwards and slightly downwards….

They are Dr and you can read all about them..

And what about UK rights as third country citizens. Can you oblige?

Utter nonsense

Phew, for a moment Mefty you might have thought you were incorrect. Always good to get the counter affirmation 😉

Another conf call on impact of Brexshit at 11:00 today….onwards and slightly downwards….

Wow they must be fun, white board and ideas chaps? With the complete lack of detail sounds like meetings for the sake of them.

As a point one future involves a bit of common sense and admitting how ridiculous this entire exercise is and how the chances of anything being a sucess are so low it’s worth another look. That is what democracy is all about, that is what a parliament is for and that is what open discussion and honesty would deliver.
At the moment the UK is pandering to the views of a mioniority of a minority, remember only about 37% of the electorate voted for Brexit and that vote excluded a large number of long term residents and included a large number who don’t even live in the UK.

DrJ nails it.

One of my colleagues has worked in the UK for over 10 years. Her mother back home became ill and my colleague has taken unpaid leave to go and support her. this means under the latest proposals she has now lost her right to stay.

So THM a serious question, as you seem to be involved in Brexit from a fiscal point of view how grim do you think it will get for the average “worker” if at all

No Mike, we know exactly what the issues are and can and have prepared for the different scenarios. Everything is in place. Ready to execute.

I have nothing to do with fiscal issues at all. But how bad? Depends on what deal arises. But the UK economy is already slowing so things are getting tougher already. The outlook for real wage growth looks poor IMO. £ likely to weaken from here, inflation up, interest rates up v slightly, productivity poor etc….not a good combination.. But £ apart these are happening anyway. The outlook for the average worker is still pretty grim. No change there.

under the latest proposals she has now lost her right to stay.

Alternative conclusions are available. There are HO guidelines on this issue for reference if required.

I can, and have, hence my concern.