the EU is playing hard ball , they know they are in the strong position and taking full advantage of the situation .
you cant blame them for that .

Why given the fact one side is moving its position and the other is not do you decide to focus your ire on the ones not making serious offers rather than the ones not making any offers?

Strange, I thought that the EU position papers (offers if you like) were published months before ours were. Agreed by leaders of 27 countries and published for the world to read, And they were clear with plenty of real detail. People talking about our late, and deliberately ambiguous, papers as “concessions” or “movement” is laughable. We haven’t set out any real position, or “offer” on much at all. Slowly starting to form positions (or, if you’re feeling charitable, reavealing our positions) isn’t negotiating… “we” haven’t even properly formed a starting position.

You have successfully argued/proved they have a clear position not that they have negotiated,

I think everyone would have to agree our view, however ill defined it remains, has changed where as the EU has not. I dont disagree with your explanation of how poor it has been.

The only negotiating going on is in the cabinet… and May’s warm words in speeches do not give anyone anything to work with. The EU haven’t moved, but, even if they wanted to, what is there to move towards? What does our government want?

To be a politician doesn’t require a track record in delivering results, just a track record in convincing enough people you may deliver results.

we agreed to pay till the end of the budget for a transition deal we agreed to take into account ECJ rulings * so we are moving they are not

Given this I dont see how you can call the EU repeating, an all be it clear , message over and over again as negotiating.

I am not saying we have been competent but they have not even been trying.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/may/03/the-six-brexit-traps-that-will-defeat-theresa-may

See sequencing here – its basically there attempt to delay negotiations and we should see it as such. I would not be surprised for them to play hardball over finances then say no to any economic deal.

* TBH to think a sovereign nation is going to let a foreign powers courts rule over people here is bonkers. They would not accept UK courts ruling over EU decisions so why ask for something you would not accept in a “negotiation”?

EU nationals should be given a period of time say 5 years and then accept they live her under UK law like the rest of us. Can you imagine the reaction if EU people have better rights than we do – its not why anyone voted brexit.

EU do not need to do anything.

No really. They will be so happy if the UK invokes a hard Brexshit. 😯

This is all the tories doing.

The gap between Tories and Labour Is about as wide as a Rizzla paper and yet people can’t escape defining this in petty party political terms 😯

IGM – how’s the journey. Mine just started with a rather nice wheat beer!

Junkyard – take todays debacle. May concedes ECJ must have jurisdiction during a transition period. Now its 100% clear to anyone this is essential. there can be no transition period without this. Are you really claiming thats movement on negotiations? I’d call it accepting the inevitable. There is no negotiation possible here. Its a binary choice and the EU could never accept even a temporarily membership in any way or form without the ECJ. so if you want a transition period from them you must have ECJ jurisdiction. t

Kelvin – read what they publish and you will find out

We agreed to the sequencing. Why would we expect it to change?

The recent ECJ comments from May are meaningless. She has not suggested that ECJ rulings will be followed, or mirrored, by our courts, only “considered”. Without external arbitration, or a higher court to resort to, it means absolutely nothing.

Trying to tie payments we have already committed to, in return for delaying our departure form something only we are asking to leave in the first place, isn’t going to get anyone excited beyond the UK. Why would it?

How do I block THM? He knows from my past scrutiny, including discovering of holes and errors, of the EU position papers, and the government bills and position papers, that I do read this stuff. But still he keeps up this childish shit. Absolutely sick of it. Tedious troll.

We have agreed that we will honour our financial obligations we just haven’t agreed on what they include. Read the EU positioning paper

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/sites/beta-political/files/essential-principles-financial_settlement_en_0.pdf

And if you agree to signing up to all of that up from then you are a bigger fool than Freddie the Fat Fool from Falmouth

Well why do you post things that are blatantly untrue if you read what we are proposing ?

I’m out of this thread ’till 2018. Enjoy.

I agree with Junkyard.

Seems to me the EU negotiating position is to back the UK into either a humiliating climb down or out on your ear. Can’t say I’m surprised.

kelvin – Member

How do I block THM?

http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/stw-killfile-plugin/page/2

The informed have said this from the start – both sides start from incompatible positions but one side is trying to bully that other. They ignore the fact that they will be losers here too but they are too proud to back down. So we should play v hard ball and call their bluff. And the gov and the oppo should be united in that position

Then it would get interesting

This is all the tories doing.

The gap between Tories and Labour Is about as wide as a Rizzla paper and yet people can’t escape defining this in petty party political terms

Simply a statement of historical fact. The referendum was called by a Tory PM. No evidence that a Labour PM would have done so.

So define labours position for us?

There’s such a huge gulf between what might reasonably be expected of the UK and what Davies is offering that progress seems unlikely.

On NI the EU is insisting on some kind of physical checks at the border as it would be the EU border with the UK and the EU needs to be able to stop Britian flooding the EU with tarif free goods from the rest of the world (tarif free trade with the rest of the world was a reason for Brexit remember). The UK has so far refused this.

On the divorce payment the figures I’ve seen from the UK side, £20bn and £38bn, have both been denied and are far from the figures calculated and presented by the EU. The UK figures barely cover membership during the Art. 50 period and an eventual transition period, adding the part of EU debt attributable to the UK and pensions gives a figure of around 100bn euros. The EU needs a figure with parliamentary backing to work on, that’s when negotiations will start, and end if the figure is seen as rediculously low.

The DUP having a hold on the Tories means progress on NI is unlikely so I can’t see “negotiations” going far. Negotiations thus far can sumarised as:

Britain “we hear what you’re asking and we refuse point blank, go whistle”.

EU “OK, next meeting in two months then”.

and repeat at each meeting of Davies and Barnier.

May concedes ECJ must have jurisdiction during a transition period. Now its 100% clear to anyone this is essential. there can be no transition period without this. Are you really claiming thats movement on negotiations?

has her position changed if so its negotiations

I was referring to taking ECJ rulings into account on our courts when making decisions re EU nationals post separation. The EU want to retain jurisdiction after separation

How do I block THM? …. Absolutely sick of it. Tedious troll….I’m out of this thread ’till 2018. Enjoy.

TJ gives you the solution, many of us feel the same as you dont leave the forum or thread because of this.

And the truth

(2) Ensuring the avoidance of a hard border on the island of Ireland is central to protecting the gains of the Peace Process

You couldn’t make it up!

So define labours position for us?

Not relevant as I already said. Whether they’re pro or anti, they wouldn’t have got us into this situation. It’s purely a result of Tory internal politics.

UK said they will commit to paying current budget ? have they given an actual figure yet ?

How about the irish border ? anything concrete ?

on the other hand the EU citizens proposals seem fair to me .

The UK has so far refused this.

we cannot as the good friday agreement collapses. Does the Eu really want a return to the troubles?

Britain “we hear what you’re asking and we refuse point blank, go whistle”.

EU “OK, next meeting in two months then”.
Except there has been movement in our position, Even the EU has accepted that we have moved nearer just not near enough so I think its actually

EU “we hear what you’re asking and we refuse point blank, go whistle”.

UK “OK, next meeting in two months then”.

So NI is a catch 22 with the only way out being to cancel Brexit.

Edit to add: The Good Friday agreement was torn up when th eTories formed a coalition with the DUP, the British government is no longer impartial.

on the other hand the EU citizens proposals seem fair to me .

What are they, again?

cchris2lou – Member

UK said they will commit to paying current budget ? have they given an actual figure yet ?

20 billion for the next two years is the offer. come back when you are serious was the reply

How about the irish border ? anything concrete ?

Nope – nothing at all. Waffle and bluster but nothing concrete.

20 billion for the next two years is the offer. come back when you are serious was the reply

Sorry which side is negotiating again and trying to reach a deal 😉

PLEASE NO JUST A JOKE

EU citizens can stay and then would have to register . it is not fom but not much hastle to me .

20 billions was mentioned but i thought uk gov was going to send a more detailed offer to the EU . has it been done yet ?

EU citizens can stay and then would have to register

Which EU citizens ?

I offer you 40k for your house, Junkyard.

eu citizens living in the uk .

eu citizens living in the uk .

All EU citizens? Are you sure?

Paypal Gift ?
Whilst I appreciate the offer and its in the right direction its £100k take it or leave it .

I am not negotiating

Essentially the EU has set criteria it has not entered a negotiation

Likewise if you pay the £100k we can discuss the washing machine and the lights and flooring but not until then 😉

I m not disputing that the EUs position is not a fine for them but it is not really a negotiation position and they are not trying. We are all be it poorly. Its their market and they control but essentially it looks like the options are acquiesce to their demands or get months of this.
May has moved they have not. I dont see any other way to describe what has happened.

The White paper released by Fox outlines the no deal scenario… Lots of red tape

The Good Friday agreement was torn up

Will there be a point when you stop making things up?

. This paper sets out the different UK and EU negotiating positions as well as how they both pledge to honour the Good Friday Agreement,

The issue that needs to be debated is simple. Under what terms will the uk have access to the single market and EU have access to the uk. The rest follows after that not before. The Eu knows this. So do we.

We need to stand firm and ensure that they come up the table ready for meaningful negotiations not simply hoe to protect their budget.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/07/a-view-from-germany/

Also interesting May refuses to answer whether she’s had legal advice on how to stop Brexit. 😉

Under what terms will the uk have access to the single market and EU have access to the uk. The rest follows after that not before. The Eu knows this. So do we

I am not sure how times they need to state their position before you accept they dont know this and they disagree?

FWIW i dont disagree with the fact that the above has to happen nor that we need to

ensure that they come up the table ready for meaningful negotiations

though I am less sure standing firm is the method

However for you to accuse someone of making things up and then claim the EU know the exact opposite of their constantly stated opinion may lead some to conclude you are in fact making things up.

Britain is pressing on with Brexit with a government that includes the DUP. Brexit and the Good Friday agreement are incompatible on many levels as you’ll see if you read through the agreement. The agreement includes freedoms and responsibilites that are incompatible with NI and Eire being on two sides of an EU/rest of world frontier. Negotiating those away or simply removing them (hard Brexit) is in breach of the Good Friday agreement (and if you refuse to honour your responsibilities in a signed agreement then in popular parlance you are “tearing it up”).