10 years ago

Please stop using such misleading emotive language. Its not ignoring anything its giving its view on the same issue which is what they are there to do. Two chambers disagree is the factual version of that. Do you want examples of the unelected lords ignoring the house of commons ? sometimes even on manifesto pledges? Shall I ?

Please strop posting French language links as you know its a minority language here.

He is correct it does happen but that is what checks and balances are for. if they never operated then we may be able to claim its just a rubber stamping process. When we can find examples of them disagreeing then we know it functions as designed

You can argue about the design if you like but it is doing what it say s on the tin

The GPA (surrogate mothers I think) debate is current, Lifer, and once again the council is overriding the parliament.

its not overriding its disagreeing with which is how the democracy works

you are just explaining how it works and using crap emotive descriptive words for the process

To get a law you need the ascent of both

When you don’t it is not overriding it is giving its view- would you prefer it just always agreed with them on everything – is this somehow more democratic – seems t me its just rubber stamping

Please stop using such misleading emotive language

You’re pulling my leg, right? Pot, kettle, black and all that.

You’ve accused me of getting my facts wrong (I’m being generous there) and when I prove I’m stating accurately how the system works you try to devalue what I say by accusing me of using emotive language.

Why not just admit I’m right and my examples prove it, Junkyard?

the process may be flawed – what democracy is not?- but its not inherently antidemocratic

This sounds fair….

its not inherently antidemocratic]null

In the same way as an atheist isn’t necessarily anti-religion. But isn’t religious either.

I’m not claiming Europe is anti-democratic (That’s Le Pen and Farage). However, if you read through how decisions are made in the EU it’s very hard to conclude it’s democratic. You don’t need to be able to read French to count how many times the word “democratic” or “democracy” appear in the explanation. They don’t, it’s not a democratic process, it’s a “decision making process”.

The IFS has also taken objection to Gove lying through his arse miss-representing its figures last week

http://www.ifs.org.uk/about/blog/346

NHS
Michael Gove claimed on Friday that the IFS had said that leaving the EU would free up £8 billion to spend on the NHS. We have not said that. We have looked carefully at the likely public finance implications. We conclude that the net UK contribution to the EU over the next few years is indeed likely to be about £8 billion a year, £8 billion which would become available for other things were we to leave. However we also point out that even a small negative effect of just 0.6% on national income from leaving the EU would damage the public finances by more than that £8 billion. There is virtual unanimity among economic forecasters that the negative economic effect of leaving the EU would be greater than that. That is why we conclude that leaving the EU would not, as Michael Gove claims we said, leave more money to spend on the NHS. Rather it would leave us spending less on public services, or taxing more, or borrowing more.

Please strop posting French language links as you know its a minority language here.

And that’s the way some of us want to keep it!

The IFS has also taken objection to Gove lying through his arse miss-representing its figures last week

Yeah, but the point is that he said it, people believed it, and only anal Google-dweebs are concerned with actually checking the facts.

We are reduced to a situation where public debate on an important issue is reduced to a level below the most inane internet forum, where anybody can say anything and readers select the most entertaining items to serve as “facts”.

Post Truth Politics (#PTP)

Farrage, Salmond, Trump, Bojo, Gove, IDS….the founder members

Scarily successful – we get what we deserve?

I was asking a political advisor recently about why seemingly well educated people do this:

1. They don’t realise they are lying
2. They have begun to believe that their lies are actually the truth (Jeffrey Archer syndrome)
3. They know they are lying but think that the ends justify the means (Alex Salmond syndrome)
4. They know they are lying but simply don’t give a shit (Bojo-Trump syndrome)

His response was mainly 4 !!!

I’m not claiming Europe is anti-democratic …..it’s very hard to conclude it’s democratic

Erm ok that cleared that one up then.

I will start giving you welsh links and are you trying to regain the true troll with yet more French links 🙄

Reads back thread

Why not just admit I’m right and my examples prove it, Junkyard?

Yes you want your title back

Moly was questioning he has decided which one of was fair you deal with it how your trollsomeness sees fit

Fell free to link stuff in Welsh, Junkyard. I might be the only one who makes the effort to understand though. About a fifth of Brits speak French and many more have some notions. I linked this:

“Bisphénol A, phtalates, pesticides : la Commission européenne condamnée pour son inaction”
En savoir plus sur http://www.lemonde.fr/planete/article/2015/12/16/bisphenol-a-phtalates-pesticides-bruxelles-condamnee-pour-son-inaction_4833090_3244.html#PbY4mCvqUAGG5sPM.99

I assume that STW members can understand French when it’s vocabulary common to English “European Commission condemned inaction”. I credit people with intelligence and linguistic strategic competence. I was a little surprised to see someone accusing others of xenophobia react so strongly to links that are just there for reference and were not essential to understanding my point. I’m quite happy reading languages I don’t speak for gist, try it, you’ll be surprised how much you understand.

You can’t flaw the way I’ve demonstrated what I’ve said about the EU commission/parliament decision making process so you’re attacking me on a personal level instead. If nothing else we’ve learned that you’re Welsh.

About a fifth of Brits speak French

😆 You verging back into trollism?

Not if you believe Wiki.

Edukator – Reformed Troll
Not if you believe Wiki.

j’ voudrais deux bieres, sil vous plait, counts for about 95% of that! 😆

What you should have learnt is that I can post links to welsh language sites
It does not prove I am welsh anymore than you posting French ones proves your French

Not doing this trolly stuff I am just not interested.

About a fifth of Brits speak French

Non!

Based on my own extensive travelling around Europe (and the RoW) you can usually get by with English anywhere, you’ll be very lucky with any other language (outside of its ‘regions’).

Booked this on 6th March 2016:

Don’t trust postal votes or my usually trusty proxy.

‘Out’ by the way.

Well don’t accuse people of trolling when they’re not then, Junkyard. I’m not trolling now an haven’t in my contributions which question to what extent the EU is democratic.

The EU started as an agreement on steel and coal tariffs, became a free trade zone and through a series of treaties the institution we have today. It has never become a fully fledged European government because national sovereignty still dominates in many domains. The way it is run reflects this, the power of veto and the commission system means that the majority can’t impose its will on the minority. A single country can still put a spanner in the works or negociate exceptional treatment without the parliament ever discussing it let alone voting. Poland and GB have done so recently, there was no parliamentary vote on the Cameron deal.

It works because it isn’t democratic. If every measure had to go through the parliament and get a majority the institution wouldn’t last a year. Something would get voted that so irritated the citizens of one country or another that Le Pen, Farage or whoever would get into power and pull the country out. The EU works because it is a flawed democracy and wouldn’t work as a true democracy where directly elected to the parliament have the last word.

So I accept we have to have a compromise. What I don’t like is (and you won’t like this) the way the day to day functioning gives so much say to commercial interests/lobby groups. The bisphenol example shows how the chemical industry lobby has far greater influence than health professional and the outcome is law that favours profits over public health. It’s the same in every sector, money wins. Real cigarettes can advertise more than e-cigarettes and the most lethal drug in common use, alcohol, is promoted. The car manufacturers decide what the acceptable level of NOX is, Monsanto which pesticides are safe. The system is not democratic and it’s failing you and me.

Despite that, I still want in. I want to see change but change from within. I want to see the lobbies ousted and decisions made by the parliament not by the commission.

The problem with the Brexit debate is that Brits are being told to free themselves from Europe when in fact Europe has almost no hold over them and can be told to FRO. Because that’s the system, it’s not democratic and if you don’t like the measures you block them.

Some good points there Edukator especially in relation to what is important in the debate. That is why I recommended reading the Treasury analysis – not for the spuriously precise numbers, but for the identification of the factors that are central to the debate (or at least should be).

As you indicate, a lot of the “no control” stuff is total hogwash, hence the lack of answers to simple questions from the BSers

It bugs me that the idiots we’ve been sending to represent us ie, Farage and Co, pretty much opted out. The EU is not perfect, but it pisses me off that the same people who want out are the same people that couldn’t be arsed trying to make it work

If leave wins, the only silver lining is that bojo, ids and Farage will not stay in politics long after the economy comes crashing down around them.

Will 4 years before the next election be enough to see the damage that has been done?

If only it as that simple. If leave win, we have an extended period of uncertainty, major political parties in disarray and high business risk. The prospect of Bojo in 10 and Gove in 11 D Street is too awful to imagine.

The sad thing is that nothing will happen quickly. I am already seeing major investment plans on hold until after the result and many dependent on it.

I predict that if Britain pulls out the first country deals will be made with is Russia. Putin will love it. Dairy products and arms for gas.

The prospect of Bojo in 10 and Gove in 11 D Street is too awful to imagine.

Quite so!

@DrJ I hve only been around here 4 years but long enough to have observed the way STW political threads work – its rarely Q & A its normally Q & Q, what’s good for the Goose is good for the Gander. Also fee free to come up with you own numbers, Germany’s on the hook for €100bn amd France €75bn for Greece already amd its pnly just begun. Italy and Spain are far bigger issues (opinion polls already show 50% of Italians want out too)

@footflaps strange you’d position for Brexit when all the establishment money is on Remain – hence the moves and volatility now as the unexpected course of the campaign has meant people are moving to a more balanced position hece the short term vol. Hope you didn’t invest in Europe, I have close to a zero allocation to Europe although long French property via wife (all her pension is in the US coincidently as she’s very negative on France/Europe/€). To be honest I don’t punt my pension on short dated bets and imho its clear in the event of Brexit in the medium term £ is going to be much much stronger than the €

@Edukator you seem to have a very short memory, who was selling warships to Russia and who else does a staggering amount of business with Russia? The UK and the US put pressure on the EU do enact sanctions as neither we nor the US have much commerical leverage as we do little business with Russia. It took a lot of pressure from the UK and the US and indeed Putin shooting down an airliner full of Dutch and Australian citizens before the limp wristed French and Germans did much of anything

By the way I wouldn’t take any stick about links in French, Chrome does auto-translate and its not too bad.

The prospect of Bojo in 10 and Gove in 11 D Street is too awful to imagine.

Distinct possibility even if Remain wins, can’t see Tories rallying around either Cameron or Osbourne. Gove may fancy Foreign Secretary more anyway. May to Chancelor as she’s really eurosceptic and has kept out of the s-fight mudslinging. Patel to Home Secretary ?

there was no parliamentary vote on the Cameron deal.

There was no vote here on it either so neither are democratic- every argument you make can be applied equally here.

The EU works because it is a flawed democracy and wouldn’t work as a true democracy where directly elected to the parliament have the last word.

One could view the Council as the second chamber of a parliament and they are the elected representatives of the people, just from national elections. You think its unfair Dave represents us ?
All democracies are flawed BUT we have, literally and completely unelected, second chamber with NO democratic accountability. Given that its daft to withdraw from a process more democratic than ours because its undemocratic.
As for big business – do you really wish to argue the UK is free form its influence – why has lEvssson not been implemented? Why have we no “sugar tax” , why have we no labeling on foods – and what groups were represented. I agree with all of it but that is what happens in capitalism and if we leave it will still happen here as it does now.

I predict that if Britain pulls out

The economy will gi tits up we will struggle to make deals abroad and with the EU who will play really hardball and there will be another vote in 2 years time to see if we want to accept the deal on the table – we wont and we will vote to stay in

MInor “civil” war will break out in the shires.

My memory is fine Jamba, I’d rather the Mistrals had gone to Putin than Egypt. On the Syrian front it seems there’s a tacit agreement between Cameron and Putin and other EU states as to who bombs where and whom to bits.

I hve only been around here 4 years but long enough to have observed the way STW political threads work – its rarely Q & A

😀 Correct, certainly no answers so far, just Q&….. 😉

Odd reluctance to answer such simple (and yet vital questions)? Guess the answers are too unpalatable.

Still. let’s try again.

The questions:

Have we contributed to the fund?
On what grounds did we participate in supporting Greece, if at all?
Was it collateralised?
Was it paid back in full?

Only four, now the answers:

1. Yes/no
2. Needs a sentence
3. Yes/no
4. Yes/no

GFI!!

imho its clear in the event of Brexit in the medium term £ is going to be much much stronger than the €

The markets don’t share your optimism one little bit!!

BBC

The Times

Grauniad

@DrJ I hve only been around here 4 years but long enough to have observed the way STW political threads work – its rarely Q & A its normally Q & Q, what’s good for the Goose is good for the Gander. Also fee free to come up with you own numbers, Germany’s on the hook for €100bn amd France €75bn for Greece already amd its pnly just begun. Italy and Spain are far bigger issues (opinion polls already show 50% of Italians want out too)

My point was that the leaders of Leave are now no better than people on an Internet forum, spouting bollox with no basis in fact or logic. We’re used to you making stuff up but it’s disappointing when senior politicians do so.

Germany is on the hook for Greece. And? As THM has pointed out ad nauseam that affects the EZ not us. If there is a knock on effect of that crisis we will be equally affected whether or not we are in the EU.

My point was that the leaders of Leave are now no better than people on an Internet forum, spouting bollox with no basis in fact or logic

Exactly like stay.

‘What comes first WW3 or the global Brexit recession?’

I’m not claiming Europe is anti-democratic

Well you should be, the EU is profoundly anti-democratic. That in fact is one of its principle raison d’etre – to thwart democracy and nullify national election results. Especially if the people are deemed to have voted incorrectly.

It is structured in such a way to guarantee that there is no direct influence from popular or grassroots movements, while simultaneously guaranteeing the maintaining of the status quo and making significant change completely impossible to achieve.

It keeps the people at arm lengths from the centre of power while bankers and corporations have very easy access, at best, and complete dominance of the institutes of power at worst.

Universal suffrage was the great historical compromise which capitalism made, it was a long hard struggle. The EU exists to make that great historical compromise worthless beyond very minor tinkering of the status quo.

It is an aggressive expansionist entity which exists above all to serve itself.

As Marx pointed out capitalism is revolutionary, the EU shows just how revolutionary capitalism is.

If you’re generous, as some on the soft revisionist left have increasingly become, you can at best describe it as a benevolent dictatorship of bankers and corporations.

Excellent, Ernie! But I wouldn’t go quite that far.

he global Brexit recession?

WHilst there is no doubt Dave and george are overstating the economic doom the list of independent and international organisation predicting this is considerably large and basically everyone except those who want to leave who have no clear strategy to negate this.

you are free to ignore the opinion of the international community[ or call them vested interest or whatever] but its unlikely they are all lying and all politically motivated.

“Compared to this, the pressure brought to bear in industrial disputes by the unions is minuscule. This power was revealed even more clearly in 1976 when the International Monetary Fund secured cuts in our public expenditure. … These [four] lessons led me to the conclusion that the UK is only superficially governed by MPs and the voters who elect them. Parliamentary democracy is, in truth, little more than a means of securing a periodical change in the management team, which is then allowed to preside over a system that remains in essence intact. If the British people were ever to ask themselves what power they truly enjoyed under our political system they would be amazed to discover how little it is, and some new Chartist agitation might be born and might quickly gather momentum.”[/i] – Tony Benn 1988

If this is true of Westminster, and you would struggle to claim that it wasn’t, then how much truer is it of the EU?

you are free to ignore the opinion of the international community[ or call them vested interest or whatever] but its unlikely they are all lying and all politically motivated.

Much like ignoring two groups of monkeys throwing shit at each other.

Has any politician come out of this looking anything other than an idiot?

So I accept we have to have a compromise. What I don’t like is (and you won’t like this) the way the day to day functioning gives so much say to commercial interests/lobby groups. The bisphenol example shows how the chemical industry lobby has far greater influence than health professional and the outcome is law that favours profits over public health. It’s the same in every sector, money wins. Real cigarettes can advertise more than e-cigarettes and the most lethal drug in common use, alcohol, is promoted. The car manufacturers decide what the acceptable level of NOX is, Monsanto which pesticides are safe. The system is not democratic and it’s failing you and me.

Bull.

Do you think motorcycle manufacturers set the Euro 4 emissions standards? I think not. Do you think the UK government is more likely to ban Bisphenol A? Again, I think not. On the topic of alcohol, it’s simply more culturally acceptable in Europe to drink than smoke. Hence the bias against smoking.

As for e-cigs

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2016/03/12/e-cigarettes-are-no-safer-than-smoking-tobacco-scientists-warn/

Buohahaha