Viewing 40 posts - 3,201 through 3,240 (of 77,140 total)
  • EU Referendum – are you in or out?
  • jambalaya
    Free Member

    DrJ. The Leave campaign is far far to the left of Poland, Hungary, Slovakia and Austria. The Austrian Presidential election is a reflection the broader shift in that country mainly due to the mishandling of migration crises. Had Hofer won he would have called an early election durther consolidating gains for the right locked into Parliament for a further 5 years. Its also wrong to say the Leave has based itself around immigration as it has most clearly not. What is true is that it is a powerful issue which concerns many people and for which Remain have no answer. Hence Leave have timed their focus in this issue perfectly. Cameron failed totally to gain any meaningful concessions here, the EU wouldn’t even consider it. I am sure he pushed for it with all the other countries warning them it could well be a Referendum loser but they chose to stick to their position.

    Its my view Remain have not been able to make a remotely positive case for migration with respect to wages in particular. Stuart Rose (ex M&S CEO) the chair of Remain said right at the beginning leaving the EU would lead to a rise in wages (he was trying to make the point that this would be bad for business and jobs) but it reflects reality imo. It does not help Remain that senior Labour figures including Frank Field think the EU is bad for working people and that’s before the volte-face from Corbyn.

    jambalaya
    Free Member

    NHS budget is about £100Bn per annum, so that works out at about 5%, i.e. not worth even getting out of bed for.

    A 5% budget shift is massive. You are speaking of £5.2bn. Remember Labour fought the 2015 GE on a promise to “save the NHS” with a budget increase of £2bn.

    molgrips
    Free Member

    I agree with THM. Very well put.

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    DrJ
    Full Member

    Had Hofer won he would have called an early election durther consolidating gains for the right locked into Parliament for a further 5 years

    Yep – 5 years. If we leave the EU it’s forever, not 5 years.

    Its also wrong to say the Leave has based itself around immigration as it has most clearly not.

    Clearly you did not watch Gove last night. The answer to every question, on whatever issue, was immigration. Cameron, or whoever replaces him, will have to address the issue of endemic racism within the Tory party.

    oldnpastit
    Full Member

    Remember Labour fought the 2015 GE on a promise to “save the NHS” with a budget increase of £2bn.

    Yes, at the time I thought that was stupid as well.

    jambalaya
    Free Member

    Hmm, but I don’t get paid in percentages so is that less than £280 per year per household or more?

    More I say but whether its £280, £350 of £500 is not really the point. As for percentages when tax changes on fuel by 1% or 2% we all notice and we certainly would if VAT moved by 2% or income tax by 3%.

    How any budget savings are spent will be a matter for future Governments, the ones we elect.

    DrJ
    Full Member

    How any budget savings are spent will be a matter for future Governments, the ones we elect.

    They will quickly be consumed by the extra welfare payments necessary after the economy crashes.

    mikewsmith
    Free Member

    How any budget savings are spent will be a matter for future Governments, the ones we elect.

    Would that be elected via an election?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Parliament_election,_2014
    or by who your parents were and how much money you gave to a political party
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Lords

    ninfan
    Free Member

    house of lords

    did you really mean to pick an example where the principle of parliamentary supremacy means that their decisions can be overruled?

    If we had that with Europe, we wouldn’t even be having a referendum.

    mikewsmith
    Free Member

    If we had that with Europe, we wouldn’t even be having a referendum.

    More to highlight that people actually vote for the EU parliament, something Leavers seem to be having a fingers in their ears moment about again and again. The referendum is mostly due to people liking having someone to blame and many other reasons. It’s pandering to the loony wing of the Tory party.

    Junkyard
    Free Member

    Its my view Remain have not been able to make a remotely positive case for migration

    Says the migrant who will be a migrant after the vote- can you not name any positives – I love your posts 😆
    Its intentional all this is isnt it.

    it is a powerful issue which concerns many people and for which Remain have no answer

    I think you have confused what happens when THM asks you three simple questions and a political opponent giving you an answer you dont like. Immigration makes us economically more prosperous

    Just because some folk want to pretend they are the source of all ills – low wages for example- an issue with which the voraciously right wing care not one jot for – we have folk who opposed the Minimum Wage going on about low wages…oh the irony.

    Junkyard
    Free Member

    Developments affecting Parliamentary sovereignty
    Over the years, Parliament has passed laws that limit the application of parliamentary sovereignty. These laws reflect political developments both within and outside the UK.

    They include:

    The devolution of power to bodies like the Scottish Parliament and Welsh Assembly.
    The Human Rights Act 1998.
    The UK’s entry to the European Union in 1973.
    The decision to establish a UK Supreme Court in 2009, which ends the House of Lords function as the UK’s final court of appeal.
    These developments do not fundamentally undermine the principle of parliamentary sovereignty, since, in theory at least, Parliament could repeal any of the laws implementing these changes.

    https://www.parliament.uk/about/how/role/sovereignty/

    My bold

    Essentially if parliament is not sovereign over the EU the whole vite is pointless as we cannot decide for ourselves. I suspect even you dont wish to argue that point.

    Also worth noting the lord’s regularly send things back to the house of commons and they then change the legislation/give up/put it in the long grass rather than wait two years/ have a battle with them

    Two this year alone IIRC- tax credits being the only one i can name

    Crap point basically as we still have unelected participants in our democracy there from birthright and political patronage or belonging to the correct church with an unelected head of state. Despite all this some folk think we can lecture others on “unelected” folk
    Oh the irony

    teamhurtmore
    Free Member

    Its my view Remain have not been able to make a remotely positive case for migration with respect to wages in particular.

    And the reason? Most studies conclude that migration has a statistically insignificant (direct) impact on wages with conclusions suggesting both directions. The ones that focus on how migration impacts both demand and supply of labour tend to reach more positive conclusion but even then it’s not meaningful.

    So why make a mountain out of a molehill for purely political purposes. That would be silly and misleading. One might as well make up an arguments about an item of expenditure that is <1% of GDP and how that is the crux for the future of the NHS……..

    But there is a common theme here of exaggerating issues – cost of membership, impact of immigration , lack (sic) of control etc….wonder why?

    ninfan
    Free Member

    Despite all this some folk think we can lecture others on “unelected” folk

    Wish I could embed this:

    https://twitter.com/LeaveEUOfficial/status/720535511052455936/video/1

    jambalaya
    Free Member

    The EU parliament has no power, its all at the unelected commission – did you not listen to Tony Benn ?

    TMH maybe the party who most of the low skilled, unskilled and unemployed vote for should be doing a bit more to educate them as to those studies then. You see I think those people are voting based upon their personal experience not what some academic has written up. Plus the fact that the current leadership of said party don’t actually believe in the EU.

    The Leave campaign is based upon many things – budget contribution, being tied economically to a stagnant EU, lack of democracy at the EU, subservience to European courts, ever expanding EU with poor countries being paid to join, freedom of movement, pressure on housing and services but with one central message taking back CONTROL.

    Yep – 5 years. If we leave the EU it’s forever, not 5 years.

    Why, we can never join again ? Surely if its that great a future political party standing on a manifesto to rejoin the EU will be swept back into power on an unstoppable wave of euro enthusiasm. I suppose we might have to join the back of the line after Albania, Macedonia and Turkey though 😕

    Junkyard
    Free Member

    you made a poor point wildly shooting at corbyn wont make your point any less poor.

    DrJ
    Full Member

    The Leave campaign is based upon many things

    Nope, it’s not. All those arguments are lost and you’re just repeating discredited lies. All you have left is racism.

    with one central message taking back CONTROL.

    Control of what exactly? This conceited bullshit reminds me of a joke:

    An ant is clinging to an elephant’s hind quarters pumping his tiny ant dick into the large elephant lady bits. At that moment a coconut falls off a tree onto the elephant’s head.
    “Ouch!” said the elephant.
    “Yeah”, said the ant, “suffer, baby, suffer!!”

    teamhurtmore
    Free Member

    TMH maybe the party who most of the low skilled, unskilled and unemployed vote for should be doing a bit more to educate them as to those studies then.

    That’s a rather convoluted logic. I would prefer that OUTers stopped lying about this and other issues. Here’s hoping…

    You see I think those people are voting based upon their personal experience not what some academic has written up.

    Anecdote > facts. A great way to make important decisions 😯

    The Leave campaign is based upon many things –

    budget contribution – the key point. Yes, (1) lies and (2) focus on a figure that represents <1% of GDP. talk about missing the point. No wonder you guys have to massively exaggerate to try and make it relevant!

    being tied economically to a stagnant EU – no we are not. We have FTA arrangements with nearly all the Commonwealth and the US is one of our biggest trading partners. We are not tied to anyone. Simple fact is that our major trading partners happen to be located in Europe. We should seek an arrangement that facilitates this not hinders it.

    lack of democracy at the EU – ok, I will concede this one

    subservience to European courts – BS

    ever expanding EU with poor countries being paid to join – yes better to focus on Pakistan etc hmm, Turkey versus Pakistan just how consistently are we applying the criteria?

    freedom of movement – a good thing that you and I and our families have benefitted from. Long love freedom of movement!

    pressure on housing and services – scaremongering

    but with one central message taking back CONTROL – indeed look at all those things we don’t control ie all the major instruments of policy etc. This is made up.

    So a pretty weak case all in all. The trinity of LIES, XENOPHOBIA, SCAREMONGERING. Shameful.

    jambalaya
    Free Member

    Nope, it’s not. All those arguments are lost and you’re just repeating discredited lies. All you have left is racism.

    Lost. In your mind not in mine. EDIT: All the Remain economic scenarios are garbage. Let me be absolutely clear not a single one of IMF, OECD, G7, economists panel modelled a scenario where Greece defaults and causes contagion to other eurozone countries and pulls the EU into a deep recession with no ammunition left at the ECB. That is the scenario they are all worried about and why they want us in the EU to do the heavy lifting in the bailouts. However, they did not model that scenario and it’s impact on the EU versus us being outside and free to respond with trade agreements and the ability to distance ourselves from the bailout (e.g. IMF commitments only and no others).

    Both you and TMH are repeating the same insults and intimidation which will not go down with the minimum of 47% (IMO) who are going to vote Leave. It is attitudes such as yours all over Europe which is leading the growth of the right as you will not treat rationally the electorate’s real issue simply choosing to ignore it and carrying on regardless.

    There is a world of difference between choosing to trade with Asia and accepting free movement from an ever expanding EU.

    The EU had a chance to make changes to reflect not only what the UK wants but many in the rest of Europe, they passed that up out of a sense of superiority and if we Leave their project collapses they will have only themselves to blame.

    DrJ
    Full Member

    Nope – you have lost on the economy which is why you invent figures like the 350m, and you invent facts like Turkey being in the EU. All proof of the depths of deception to which you have sunk.

    Of course it may be that a majority will vote out. That does not validate your lies and turn them into truth. It means that yet again people have been fooled into voting against their best interests. But I am aware that you don’t care about that – you are well off and can escape from the wreckage via family and contacts. You have no skin in the game and yet you peddle lies to poor people who have none of your advantages.

    Shame on you.

    Junkyard
    Free Member

    they passed that up out of a sense of superiority and if we Leave their project collapses

    Jamby you are the living breathing King of Satire and constant deliverer of irony of the highest order
    Superb work there

    I also liked the way you blamed those who challenge racism as the real problem and not folk like you who pedal racially motivated fear to the extent even decent out voters dont want to associate with your views

    teamhurtmore
    Free Member

    Based on edit, I will repeat two simple questions

    1. How is the UK exposed to the EFSM as a non EZ country? You are making a massive of this, so lets be clear.
    2. Was our last support collateralised and paid back?

    It is Brexit that has chosen (with some success I grant you) to make immigration the central point of the debate. Given that the accusations made against immigrants are falsifiable, one is left to no alternative conclusion that xenophobia lies at the heart. This is neither an insult or immigration, it is a reflection of the reality that Brexit has created.

    VL have made their bed of lies, they can’t complain if they are now made to lie in it.

    ninfan
    Free Member

    you invent figures like the 350m

    Thats not fair THM – nobody on the ‘Brexit’ side invented the £350m figure –

    the figure for the UK’s gross contributions to the EU is published on page 9.9 of the pink book, titled “UK official transactions with institutions of the EU” and gives a figure for “Total Debits” of £19.107 Billion

    published elsewhere as:

    now, you could argue that its the ‘wrong’ figure to use, or a figure deliberately selected to misrepresent the facts, but its not an ‘invented’ figure, its its an official government published figure within the recognised list of UK/EU transactions.

    The head of UK statistics says that the use of the figure without further clarification is ‘potentially misleading’ but thats a very, very long way from calling it a lie or alleging that its been invented.

    Such inaccuracies really do undermine your own professionalism, sausage 😉

    DrJ
    Full Member

    Of course the figure 350m exists. So do any number of figures. But it is a lie to claim that this number represents the amount of money paid by the UK to the EU.

    ninfan
    Free Member

    I suggest you actually read what I just wrote DrJ 🙄

    DrJ
    Full Member

    I read it, thanks. If your case rests on what THM meant by “invented” then it’s as threadbare as Jamba’s ramblings.

    teamhurtmore
    Free Member

    Ninfan, trying to find the exact quote, but fair enough you have me there for sloppy use of words if I said that. You ere correct, I should stick to wrong figure to use or deliberately chosen to misrepresent.

    What is 100% true is that Gove was absolutely I correct to assert (forcibly) that we sent £350m to Europe. As argued many pages back this is incorrect from both an accounting and cash flow perspective.

    Still let’s not get away from the basic fact – the argument that we send £350m to the EU each week is a BLATANT LIE as is the fact that this sum could be spent on the NHS.

    Now let’s get back to all those nasty foreigners invading the UK 😉

    ninfan
    Free Member

    THM – I owe you a sincere apology – it turns out it was DrJ who used the ‘invent’ quote while trying to attack Jamba

    Which probably explains why he is scrabbling so pathetically to defend it, despite being utterly wrong 😆

    teamhurtmore
    Free Member

    Thanks I was struggling to remember where and if I had said that – I was just about to ask you for proof 😉

    You had me puzzled for a bit!!!

    seosamh77
    Free Member

    Jebus, youse still walloping on about this 350!

    This has been a productive discussion I see! 😆

    teamhurtmore
    Free Member

    Well it’s important for one side. First thing you see on website and battlebus. It’s relevant to ask why and why still?

    Bit like when your old friend Alex use to lie about the currency. These things matter!!

    DrJ
    Full Member

    Which probably explains why he is scrabbling so pathetically to defend it, despite being utterly wrong

    Yes, I was utterly wrong – it really changes the discussion to say “deliberately misuse” instead of “invent”. One of us certainly looks pathetic, but I don’t think it’s me!

    jambalaya
    Free Member

    Jebus, youse still walloping on about this 350!

    Indeed, you’d think that sort of persistence (stubbornness 😉 ) was a purely Scottish trait 🙂 BTW apologies I never did answer your point about trade the discussion moved on, I could give a future scenario but it would be guesswork just like the IMF and Treasury forecasts.

    The best bit about Remainers here focusing on the £350m is the amount of energy and time they are spending on it. Its one small detail and whether its £190m, £285m or £365m it makes little or no difference to the argument. The contribution varies enormously anyway, includes an amount guestimated for black market (inc coke and hookers, yes really), increases if we outperform other countries on a relative basis and on top of all of that the rebate can be withdrawn as the EU have threatened before when we’ve asked for other concessions to their plans.

    Just 19 days to go – phew !

    Edukator
    Free Member

    teamhurtmore
    Free Member

    Jambas you are correct it makes little or no difference and certainly won’t save the NHS.

    So why does your side give it such prominence? And why was one of your front men willing to expose himself on live TV as a blatant lier over something that is of no difference?

    Because its “sounds” like a big number and therefore can be used to mislead the gullible? If so, it works sadly. Like most of the arguments chosen to be core on the website. See ^

    DrJ
    Full Member

    it makes little or no difference and certainly won’t save the NHS

    Well, Bozo also promised to maintain support for agriculture at current levels, so that 350m has to go even further!

    ninfan
    Free Member

    therefore can be used to mislead the gullible?

    You think that campaigns should be banned from using arguments that are untrue and/or might mislead the gullible 😆

    Where to start?

    Here’s one you’ll appreciate: “Brexit is a Tax” http://www.strongerin.co.uk/brexit_is_a_tax#C1GtyCHwqvzAgMWD.97

    Junkyard
    Free Member

    I could give a future scenario but it would be guesswork just like the IMF and Treasury forecasts.

    Not tre what you mean by guess for you is a figure pulled out the air made with no research nor expertise – ie an actual guess

    Their “guess” would be research based figure presented by experts via some form of “peer review”/internal validation and supported by robust research methods

    To attempt to suggest that they are equivalent efficacy or accuracy or even both guesses is just not true.

    5thElefant
    Free Member

    Their “guess” would be research based figure presented by experts via some form of “peer review”/internal validation and supported by robust research methods

    We’re talking economists here. Guessing would be more accurate.

    Junkyard
    Free Member

    His is still a guess there one is at least an educated guess 😉

Viewing 40 posts - 3,201 through 3,240 (of 77,140 total)

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