You can always tell when Dacre is getting worried and frustrated:

Jesus

So, we’ve gone from a close working relationship with our nearest neighbours to bitter acrimony, for no reason at all.

GOOD WORK EVERYONE!

FFS.

Of course there is no “legal” necessity to pay anything… we didn’t lose sovereignty and can do what we like… just kill all our current trading arrangements, leave all the lose ends hanging, and then go into discussions with EU and others asking for new trade arrangements in, er, good faith.

The Telegraph reports

well that normally sets BS alarmbells rining 😉

that aside why hasnt their been a gov white paper on the bill, again it was one of the 3 things that Davis agreed to settle b4 trade talks when he signed up

but the gov refuse to disclose anything about it, the Foreign Secretary even saying the EU could ‘Go Whistle’

its almost as if the gov are trying to stage manage the whole thing for the swivel eyed brexies

On the most intractable issue, the so-called divorce bill, three hours of intense discussion on Tuesday was accompanied by 23 slides and 11 pages of dense text, a source said, pointing out that the EU has provided just 4 pages to outline its position.

whats really funny is that Tory supporters are saying that 4 pages isnt enough information when ‘Brexit means Brexit’ is all the Maybot has been able to output for the last year

4 vague pages of frankly nonsense

proof?

it could easily be 23 slides & 11 pages of waffle from our gov and 4 pages of concise sums from the EU

as we havent seen these legendary slides & a4 sheets we will just have to believe what the Murdoch press tells us eh?

It’s all going swimmingly.

Mol, step away from the EU narrative before you get brainwashed. Like all bullies hist in hem getting shirty because we are standing up to them. Good for the negotiators.

Kimbers it was in the Guardian too!!

@thm what?

I’m commenting on the fact that we have made adversaries out of allies for no reason.

Kimbers it was in the Guardian too!!

damn the MSM !

Mol, you know thm’s advice, same as the nuclear warning get under the table hide and don’t say anything….

I’m commenting on the fact that we have made adversaries out of allies for no reason.

of course there was a reason – the EU is not just a trading arrangement.

We are in negotiations mol. Both sides have starting positions that don’t work. They will clash as they seek compromise. In the meantime, they will manage the narrative to drive public opinion.

To date, the EU has been more successful at this especially over here, where people remain tied to petty party allegiances that prevent rational analysis. They are winning the media war.

What we saw yesterday was simply part of that process. The EU present an unrealistic demand and the UK rebuffs it. That is how negotiations work. The media will then spin their sides of the story. No change there.

There will be times when the talks get stressed. Why? Because the EU must deliver a situation for the UK that is worse than the status quo. In contrast, the UK has to achieve the opposite. So it will be tense. The extent to which either side alienates each other depends on how sensible the behind the scenes negotiators are and what happens at the key talks (also behind the scenes) between Macron, May and Merkel, the three Muskateers who actually matter (at least for now)

of course there was a reason – the EU is not just a trading arrangement.

I know and we are chucking out those benefits too

sounds like the EHIC is also a sticking point 🙁

To date, the EU has been more successful at this especially over here, where people remain tied to petty party allegiances that prevent rational analysis. They are winning the media war.

Funny man.

Yes, THM, you have neatly described the situation, and how difficult it is.

The EU are saying that the UK are being incompetent and unrealistic. Are you suggesting I shouldn’t believe this, and that they do in fact know what they are doing?

I certainly don’t have any party allegiances and the first one that stands up and says that the whole stupid brexit disaster is a catastrophe that must be stopped will have my undying gratitude pretty much irrespective of other policies.

That the EU are bully boys is the “new” lie being perpetuated by Brexiteers – even those that don’t claim to be. They have a stance. They’ve been pretty open about it.

It’s a simple step on from the paradoxical pre-referendum stance of thinking we’re amazing and that the world will beat a path to our door while simultaneously whinging about being bullied for 40 years by the rest of Europe.

Don’t worry, “someone else” will solve all that for them.

non-mail related link about that russian brexit-bot
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/media/twitter-account-suspected-of-being-part-of-russian-disinformation-campaign/news-story/ad128e22fd4c3bf6c38d18526d68de42

Are you suggesting I shouldn’t believe this, and that they do in fact know what they are doing

No I am suggesting that you put the noise into context. But if you step away from the media and read what is published by the government in terms of the briefings etc, you quickly realise that a hell of a lot more is going on than would be suggested by the very shallow 24 hour news coverage. The papers merely regurgitate press releases and out their pre-determined spin on it. Most journos have neither the time nor the inclination to do decent analysis and research any more. Constant noise “trumps” thoughtful perspective and analysis.

Not true, DD, it is merely demonstrating an understand of how the EU (doesn’t) negotiate. They bully first, ask Varoufakis, the Italians and the Portuguese. The track record is very clear.

I think thm has it right here. For background, here is the view of someone with a lot of experience of how the EU negotiate:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/may/03/the-six-brexit-traps-that-will-defeat-theresa-may

with a little more info about the big-mouthed hypocrite Verhofstadt:

https://www.thepressproject.gr/details_en.php?aid=62406

Owen Jones is very funny trying to put a Labour spin on events today in TG. Spots the dilemmas fair enough, but then pretends that Labour has a genuine alternative. Is he auditioning for HIGNFY? Or is TG now a satirical magazine?

Owen Jones is all over the place on this… acknowledging that any form of Brexit is worse than staying in the EU, yet insisting there must be no democratic means to stay in the EU. His views seem to shift whenever his party changes its approach to how we Leave, and, even when the party positions can’t be seperated with a fag paper, insisting that his party’s position is more realistic than that of the other party.

I think thm has it right here. For background, here is the view of someone with a lot of experience of how the EU negotiate:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/may/03/the-six-brexit-traps-that-will-defeat-theresa-may

The Penelope ruse
Delaying tactics are always used by the side that considers the ticking clock its ally

Tick, tock…

Mol THM, step away from the EU narrative right wing British media narrative before you get brainwashed.

one of your better contributions Ed?

Mike and IGM – had a quick look for link over lunch but couldn’t find immediately. This briefing paper does have a short summary of the HoL conclusion on P18 and is informative on other stuff as well.

http://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-7886/CBP-7886.pdf

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41106507

So at what point do the EU turn around and say “you haven’t got a clue what you want or how to implement it, you’re wasting everyone’s time, we’re going to put it to all the member states that Article 50 is annulled and you just bloody stay until such time as you’ve worked out what you want and how you’re going to get it”

??

We could veto that.

Round 3 is over.

“No decisive progress.”

Tick, tock…

Is it wrong that when I look at David Davis’s smug, self-satisfied complacent face, and the barely interested way he’s addressing this whole process, I want to Tazer him?

according to Voufrakis (stws approved brexpert) the negotiations are doomed anyway

May shot herself in the foot by triggering A50 to soon (not to mention her election u-turn disaster) & then further handicapped us by insisting that any transition ends B4 the next election (rather than whens best for the country)

By all accounts that Davis/Barnier press conference went well….

Nick Gutteridge @nick_gutteridge
Press room here genuinely stunned by that – nobody expected that level of antagonism between the pair. Is a British walkout now inevitable?
1:02 PM – Aug 31, 2017

with a little more info about the big-mouthed hypocrite Verhofstadt:

https://www.thepressproject.gr/details_en.php?aid=62406

sums up why we need to leave…

I thought of posting a vid of Barnier’s briefing, THM, but got distracted by a vid of a London jogger pushing some poor woman over and though of something more obvious to post.

Watching the main French and German channels this morning it appears Brexit is of no further interest on this side of the channel.

sums up why we need to leave… should have the testicular fortitude to stay in and set things right, rather than throwing a hissy fit and running off like cowards, unwilling to try & make the world (and the EU) a better place ….

Brexit is of no further interest on this side of the channel.

No really.

Brexit is of no further interest on this side of the channel.

no one wants to watch a once close friend’s descent into ignominy

Once again Barnier talks about the UK’s moral obligations re the Brexit Bill. He’s insane. No one is ever going to pay any material sum on that basis.

So Blair meets Junker today, two peas in a pod.

Once again Barnier talks about the UK’s moral obligations re the Brexit Bill.

indeed morality is for losers

the UKs rep as an honorable trading nation is being flushed away by brexit, just when we are going to need it the most

Why is Blair checking Junker’s (bad) breath?

To work out how many bottles of spirits he’s drunk.

Is the lack of brexit coverage (internet says otherwise, but let’s not worry about details) due to extensive coverage of Philippe and Penicaud’s labour reforms?

The only British news on my SFR news feed is Lady Di, really.

Edit: stop press! Brexit is on Tegesschau “bourse”. A few seconds to say nothing has happened and stocks are moving up slightly.