sleep underneath tarpaulins in a ditch for a daily gruel ration

We’re all bikepackers now you know… 😉

but he was a toff, OD and a Tory so obviously was out to stuff the poor and unskilled to protect his mates obviously

You missed out pig-f*****r.
That’s why you lot lost it…. (less of the we shit ifn yer doesn’t mind sunshine… 😉 )

“You lot”???? I didn’t have you down as a leaver metal head. Every day is a learning day.

indigenous unskilled would have more jobs and a better quality of life? Don’t remember that THM?

Sorry I didn’t give Corbyn’s views much traction. But your right, the labour view is very much that (hidden or otherwise) with the pretence that membership is good for workers rights to fool both sides.

Still we now have pro-EU Macron arguing Labour’s corner for them. Good on’ protectionism, a French special

THM – what I mean is the whole debacle was fumbled from the get go by the pig-f*****r in general, calling a referendum that wasn’t required just to try and appease some Tory schism. That’s why we’re in the (brex)shit

So, your lot lost it. Don’t go dragging us into it…. 😆

Im holding you personally responsible 😉

Damn right. Labour might be as useful as a chocolate teapot but it’s the Tories who have actually **** up the country.

Fun headline I saw yesterday: “Brexit, Britain’s worst foreign policy since the War of US Independence”.

and this … 😀

you gotta laugh eh?

Metal heart – i don’t care what you hold, but don’t go labelling me falsely. I have no party allegiance at all. As you can see from the start of this thread, I thought the whole idea was flawed from the beginning. How can you vote on something that isn’t going to exist in its current format in the future. Absurd waste or time and money.

But WE – those who were arguing to remain – still lost and therefore we SHOULD be able to take responsibility rather than SHIRK it. The latter is a modern trend, granted. It’s like blaming the Engkish….

Sorry THM, the pig-f****r ****-ed it up due to a Tory schism, it was **** all to do with me (or the scots for that matter). Then the old PF ran away… talk about shirking.

Jeez, you want me to take responsibility for the Holocaust because ‘we’ appeased Hitler?

I’m laying blame, because, after all, it was his fault.

And labelling falsely, this started because you falsely labelled me as a leaver. Let he who is without sin, etc. :p

Oh, I can honestly say, I’ve never blamed the Engkish for anything. Ever 😆

😯

But WE – those who were arguing to remain – still lost and therefore we SHOULD be able to take responsibility rather than SHIRK it.

No-one is reponsible for something they fought against and continue to fight againt however meager their efforts. History has never held the maquisards responsible for the acts of the Vichy government.

Sobotage anything overtly pro-Brexit.

But WE – those who were arguing to remain – still lost and therefore we SHOULD be able to take responsibility rather than SHIRK it.

THM – you’re going to have to do that one again. Slowly.
Responsibility for what? Arguing an open and shut case badly? The mess that the referendum has left us in? (Unlike you I’m actually surprised at how bad it’s looking at the moment prior to us actually leaving)
Or perhaps in a democracy it is everyone’s responsibility to espouse and support the causes they believe in?
It is I think a democratic obligation to continue to oppose Brexit – unless the Brexies manage to do something to convince me that Brexit is a good thing in which case I’ll join them.

Mods can Edukator have reformed troll removed and voice of reason inserted?

My responsibility ends at the bigoted brexiteers’ fuckwitted refusal to listen to reason or think for themselves.

It is I think a democratic obligation to continue to oppose Brexit – unless the Brexies manage to do something to convince me that Brexit is a good thing in which case I’ll join them.

I keep on asking and have yet to find anyone who can tell me the benefits gained by leaving that outweigh the benefits lost by staying. Just spouting about immigration, which was a WM issue and sovereignty which was never lost.

Unlike you I’m actually surprised at how bad it’s looking at the moment prior to us actually leaving)

I’m really starting to think that Davis (constructive ambiguity ffs!) & co are setting us up for a hard Brexit, rather than admit the truth to the voters they are lining us up for a fall & obvs it’ll all be the evil Eurocrats to blame

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4316796/david-davis-set-to-launch-battle-plan-against-eu/

I know it’s in the scum, but I’m sure the telegraph, mail etc will all be lining us up for how its all the EUs fault too

Just can’t decide if it’s cowardice in the face of a challenge they can’t handle, pure arrogance or just plain stupidity, probably all 3?

…aaand Starmer steps up as the voice of reason

https://www.theguardian.com/global/2017/aug/26/labour-calls-for-lengthy-transitional-period-post-brexit

Responsibility for what? Arguing an open and shut case badly?

Exactly. We did a bad job. Whining on about opposing Brexshit now is simply sad.

We had our chance but blew it. Now we have to live with the consequences of our failure. Tough as that may sound and anti modern thinking about not accepting responsibility for actions

With the EU playing their classic non negotiating tactic and our inability to present a united front the likelihood of a bad outcome increases by the day. That’s absurd and the weight of that responsibility will weigh even heavier than our inability to convince people not to leave. We could shirk that too, and just bury our heads in the sand though.

Nah not giving up THM , it’s not over until the fat lady has sung, as hard as it is there’s still a chance to stop the self harm!

So in your heart of hearts do you think that we will not leave the EU?

No I’m resigned to it but I’ll fight em on the beaches etc.

Seeing the harm already being done to science as some very good researchers are returning to the EU already, I can only see it damaging the country for my kids!

It’s worth challenging em to the last.

Exactly. We did a bad job. Whining on about opposing Brexshit now is simply sad.

We had our chance but blew it. Now we have to live with the consequences of our failure. Tough as that may sound and anti modern thinking about not accepting responsibility for actions
Rolling over at this point presents the current shambolic tory minority with a mandate to do whatever they want. At this point they know they have to get something at least half decent and when 2 years comes around if there is a sniff of no confidence (there will be) it will be the true 2nd referendum on the topic. Until the papers are signed the UK hasn’t sent itself to the gallows. Providing a robust opposition to the current government is key to that.

A second referendum infantilises the electorate, teaching them that their votes do not have real world effects and that poor political choices don’t matter.

Long term that’s just as bad for the nation as the damage that leaving the EU will inflict.

A second referendum infantilises the electorate, teaching them that their votes do not have real world effects and that poor political choices don’t matter.

No it doesn’t. Same as punishment doesn’t stop crime.
What I said was an election following the collapse of the very expensive minority Tory government around the time of the end of the negotiations (which won’t be looking good) could enable a party to stand on the tactical withdrawal from the A50 process. That isn’t a second referendum.
Would you sacrifice the long term furure of the country for teaching people a lesson?

Would you sacrifice the long term furure of the country for teaching people a lesson?

I would say it’s more the tories willing to sacrifice the long term future of the country simply to stop their party tearing itself apart. They are that selfish

THM, what exactly are “we” supposed to be doing to ensure a good brexit when a year and more down the line this shambles of a govt can’t come up with anything resembling a plan?

Is mindlessly cheerleading May and co all you can offer or do you have a more useful suggestion? I’m all ears.

If remainers really want a change of government it’s easy to achieve. Simply stop spending on anything not needed to stay alive. And when you buy stuff that’s needed to stay alive buy EU where possible. The economic impact would be enough to bring down a government with a majority held up by an alliance with the DUP. It just needs someone with enough weight on Facebook, Twitter and so on to launch the campaign.

STW might be big enough to start the movement, start spreading the word folks.

STOP SPENDING TO STOP BREXIT

No no no. What they should really do is buy up all the aubergines. Just imagine the chaos.

Is labour’s new position the resultof lengthy debate and analysis or have they (hopefully) seen that the wind is changing?

Resistance is NOT futile.

As has been said, rolling over will give the Brexiteers tacit agreement to rough road us any way they see fit!

Don’t forget Brexit means brexit means fracking means cuts means more Tory hatred.

Is labour’s new position the resultof lengthy debate and analysis or have they (hopefully) seen that the wind is changing?

I think that they took a look at the GE results and saw they picked up a lot of votes from Remainers, and particularly the internationalist young, who don’t want their options shut down by the old with their faux nostalgia and no skin in the game, and Lab are following up on that.

Quitters like to harp on about how the GE result was a massive endorsement of hard Brexit because that was the platform of the 2 major parties (85% of the vote). Technically that’s true but it’s also to be in denial that the electorate was given no viable choice so a lot of Labour votes were proxies for Remain.

Most hardcore Quitters voted ConservaKIP anyway. There is only upside for Labour here.

The generational gap is key here. And as the tory cluster**** continues it deepens.

The young grew up with people from other nations alongside them in school.

The old think they’re exceptional because they “won” WW2 (tho actually 99% were children or not born) and, having had the benefit of 40 years membership, have decided to deny it to those behind them.

Resistance is NOT futile.

Word.

This is nowhere near over.

If you want to resist join this
https://peoplesmarch4eu.org

We had our chance but blew it. Now we have to live with the consequences of our failure. Tough as that may sound and anti modern thinking about not accepting responsibility for actions

Our responsibility is to work even harder to stop Brexit.

Personally at present I’m doing my bit by spending all my holidays in the Alps

Demographics favour the remainers, as the bitter old brexiters shuffle off to the great 1950’s theme park in the sky.

Corbyn has clearly cottoned on to the fact that ion this subject, young people are so rightfully angry about the threat to their futures, that it’s done away with their previous electoral complacency.

Everyone knows this present May/DUP coalition farce is totally unsustainable. The Labour Party obviously senses that a clearly non-mental stance on the EU will get them over the line at the inevitable early election

Is labour’s new position the resultof lengthy debate and analysis or have they (hopefully) seen that the wind is changing?

I think they’ve simply realised there’s more votes to gain than lose by being pro single market.

Thier ‘respect the referendum results’ policy leaves them too close to tory policy to make any real ground up given brexit policy is probably the most critical political issue currently.

A second referendum infantilises the electorate, teaching them that their votes do not have real world effects and that poor political choices don’t matter.

I disagree, it depends on whether people are too proud to consider that maybe they got it wrong.

It takes courage to say, you know what, that was maybe not a great decision, and there’s no shame in changing your mind once you are better informed.

Whether many people’s egos can cope with that is a different matter, I suspect many would rather cope with the consequences of a bad decision rather than entertain the thought that they might have made a poor judgement.

Thats not just brexit, that goes for general peoples decision-making, I know many that would sooner suffer than take a hit to the ego and admit fault.

I disagree, it depends on whether people are too proud to consider that maybe they got it wrong.

They’re too proud. And stupid. Proud, stupid and xenophobic.

People won’t change their votes but some might not vote and other non-voters might bother to. But I’m certainly not angling for a new referendum.