So let’s assume that the OUTers are right and that we and our hospitals are drowning in waves of foreigners….

What is the solution? Start with the problem??

The split? Roughly 50:50 between EU non EU immigrants

EU is running above a sustainable level (sic) due to the failure of the concept of freedom of movement of people

Solution: introduce a points based system

Non EU is running abive a sustainable level (sic) despite the use of a points basd systems

Solution: apply this system to both EU and non EU

Result: you decide….people do make this up

teamhurtmore – Member

Relax, chill … You will be fine.

You are over reacting tbh besides you are Not paid that much to worry in life.

Just Vote OUT for happiness.

I blame Sesame Street for my “English” but I did learn from them at some point.

Ironic as I just see you like Elmo shouting on with an annoying voice that no one takes notice of.

chewkw – Member
It is true.
They keep calling people racists when they exhausted their own arguments.

I think it’s fairly clear chewkw is on a cocktail of hallucinogens… 😆

Drac – Moderator

I blame Sesame Street for my “English” but I did learn from them at some point.

Ironic as I just see you like Elmo shouting on with an annoying voice that no one takes notice of. [/quote]No, no, no … my favourite character is Count von Count … One vote, ah ah ah ah, two votes, ah ah ah ah, three votes, ah ah ah ah … or Cookie Monster is fine too … what did you say? Nom! Nom! Nom! Nom!

seosamh77 – Member
I think it’s fairly clear chewkw is on a cocktail of hallucinogens..

I ain’t a cool dude you know so I cannot hallucinate … only cool dude does that. High five! Fist bump!

1, Europe is one of the world’s largest economic zones and home to some our largest trading partners

2. Membership of the EU provides privileged access to this zone, stimulates trade and growth and allows us to benefit from our comparative advantages – maximise the strengths

3. We have avoided many of the weaknesses associated with some aspects of the EU – the flawed single currency, Schengen etc – while maintaining high levels of control/sovereignty over the key instruments of policy (monetary, fiscal and supply-side) – minimise the weaknesses

Bottom line: In a very imperfect world, this combination of maximising strengths and minimising weaknesses is pretty hard to beat!

Despite above, this referendum is flawed as I said at they start. The only relevant issue is how do we want to engage with Europe in the future. Since the current model is unsustainable, we do not know what the future model of Europe will look like, hence we do not know what we are voting for or against.

This is an interesting aside but an irritating distraction from the important issues facing our economy. Not that this stops the OUTers from blaming the EU for all of them!

Tant pis!

Crikey, said the bloke who once said “I am not English.”

I don’t see an issue with that. I suppose by that logic you would be upset denying that you’re Indonesian?

Ernie – do you have a sensible roundup of your out reasons? Or even a useful link (woudl have checked previous posts but, well, they’re still working the valves to upgrade from forum Version 1.ug)

squirrelking – Member

Crikey, said the bloke who once said “I am not English.”

I don’t see an issue with that. I suppose by that logic you would be upset denying that you’re Indonesian? [/quote]

Nope, call me whatever you like. Really, I take no offense at all.

Be creative in calling whatever you like … me colleagues here call me North Korean … others have called me various names. So you better make me laugh by being inventive.

Ya, I want to understand the logic of that bloke’s reply of “I am not English”. I mean since then he blocked himself away from me refusing to answer my question. Something is not right somewhere you know … gut feeling all that non-scientific stuff gut feeling …

want to understand the logic of that bloke’s reply of “I am not English”

I’d say it’s pretty bloody obvious.

squirrelking – Member

want to understand the logic of that bloke’s reply of “I am not English”

I’d say it’s pretty bloody obvious. [/quote]
Ya, if that bloke is not English what is s/he? Papua New Guinean?
Kamu berasal dari Papua kah?

chewkw land is so far from reality I dont visit and i wish folk would not quote him
Its factually incorrect to describe me as English because i am not English. Its not racist to think this , its just wrong. Its not racist to correct this, its just the truth.
Why he would need this explaining to him is amongst the many reasons i have no interest in what he says and I block him – the only person on STW i block and the only reason i got it

If he wants to get confused by this – when i said what nationality i was, then that really is his problem. I would say its amongst the least os his problems as his posts will no doubt still be demonstrating.

Junkyard – lazarus
Its factually incorrect to describe me as English because i am not English.

See see … still refusing to answer.

Are you trying to follow Michael Howard response to Jemery Paxman? (that was so funny the way the interview went …)

What are you exactly? Papau? Dayak? Zulu? Native American?

Because your answer does not make sense …

You underestimate yourself and you are the only person who ever made me seriously consider voting out

unfortunately, though i could see your reasons, nothing will make me vote with the likes of jamby or Farage on the issue. I know you are not one but all the racists will be voting leave.

Thank you but I think you exaggerate my powers of persuasion. Btw your conclusion that you cannot support leaving the EU because racists also do is shared by some fringe ultra-lefist trots who claim on the one hand that the EU is “a reactionary anti-working class unreformable institution” but will vote to stay in because voting to leave “can only produce a reactionary exit that would benefit only the xenophobic right wing of the Tory party and of UKIP”.

I have no idea why leaving a reactionary anti-working class unreformable institution “would benefit only” the xenophobic right wing of the Tory party and of UKIP, it sounds very much a contradiction in terms. And as daft as Boris Johnson’s claim that we should vote leave because the EU is what Adolf Hitler would have wanted.

Having said that they do also say “The campaign itself will be a jamboree of racist and anti-immigration bile. It will be dominated by UKIP and the Tory rightwing. Any attempt to mount a progressive exit campaign will be drowned out” which is a fair point and one of the reasons why I frankly can’t be arsed to get involved on here.

Not wishing to tar all trots with the same brush it’s only fair to point out that some trots, like the SWP, are supporting leave.

.

squirrelking from a purely left perspective here is a short summing up of reasons to leave :

http://www.leftleave.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Lexit1_v1.2.pdf

EDIT : I you want more –

The truth about the EU

@ernie by the way I posted the link to the sex assault story as an example of how the EU is incompetent, it is the debacle that is Schengen which has put Germany into the mess its in. Merkel thought she was so smart to offer asylum to all Syrians who arrived there legally. What she didn’t think through was the 1 million people of all nationalities (only 38% Syrian I believe) who would arrive illegally not least as the other Schengen countries would ignore the regulations (eg about registration) which she thought would protect Germany. Its clear from the multitude of nationalities (Bangladeshi, Moroccan, Tunisian, Afghan – who Germany says they will reject all) that the migrants have less to do with asylum and much more to do with economics.

Its a very great example of EU Incompetence

I am also very happy via controlled immigration to welcome people of all faiths or none at all

I do have to smile at those here who suggest we avoided the worst, eg euro and Schengen, if you can’t get currency and security (border control) right I have little faith in competancy in any other areas. Just to think they want an army !

EU is incompetent, it is the debacle that is Schengen which has put Germany into the mess its in. Merkel thought she was so smart to offer asylum to all Syrians the other Schengen countries would ignore the regulations …..
Its a very great example of EU Incompetence

Merkel did it, other countries did not follow the the international law rules on asylum but you still manage to blame the EU 😯

Your arguments would work much better if you did not negate them yourself

@ernie by the way I posted the link to the sex assault story…..

And I posted my accusation of petty racism about 4 hours ago, since then you have posted several times, but you’ve only just managed to dream up some cock and bull story in to explain your barrel-scraping petty racism?

I don’t think your schoolboy excuses really wash. At the end of the day you’re saying the same thing : “vote to leave the EU otherwise dark-skinned foreigners will rape your daughters”. Because the EU is so incompetent apparently.

Well, given the fact that the notoriously racist and intolerant Dalai Lama is now saying that Europe is taking too many refugees then you must have a point Ernie.

@ernie by the way I posted the link to the sex assault story as an example of how the EU is incompetent, it is the debacle that is Schengen which has put Germany into the mess its in. Merkel thought she was so smart to offer asylum to all Syrians who arrived there legally.

The migrant crisis is an example of how the EU can work or could work.

The EU failing would have been to strictly adhere to the first country you arrived in rules and dump the entire problem on the South and stick 2 fingers up to them. The EU lets the load be shared, share the pain share the gain – I know this is opposed to the Brexit message of All the Gain none of the Pain (like the magic diet pills that say you can eat cake drink beer do nothing and look like a model)

As a large number of the refugees are coming from the middle east take a look at the nations who participated in the **** up that was the invasions and subsequent military action. Those nations should be stumping up to deal with the aftermath more than those who happen to be closer. If you want an example of failing EU it’s the likes of the UK pushing for the first country registration – their problem approach to refugees. And lets remember refugees are completely separate to the debate on EU migration.

I am also very happy via controlled immigration to welcome people of all faiths or none at all

That system currently allows just over 50% of Migrants into the UK, stopping all EU migration would put the UK at 185,000/year (legal & official) but how does that address skills needs such as the one for bricklayers – probably a key set of workers needed if the UK is to build more houses and hospitals for the aging British population.

And on the Dali Lama

The Dalai Lama added that “from a moral point of view too, I think that the refugees should only be admitted temporarily”.

“The goal should be that they return and help rebuild their countries.”
Help, and help to return them – not turn them away.

chewy: Just Vote OUT for happiness.

You do realise, chewy, that if we white folk vote “OUT”, you will be OUT yourself, on a boat back home?

Merkel thought she was so smart to offer asylum to all Syrians who arrived there legally.

I wonder what it is like seeing the world through your eyes. Merkel saw desperate people with nowhere to go and, probably mindful of Germany’s historic guilt, she held out a hand to help them when nobody else would. To see that in a negative light is the view of a perverted mind, the sort that would see eating a bacon sandwich as a public display of antisemitism. I feel sorry for you. Sometimes.

ninfan – Member

Well, given the fact that the notoriously racist and intolerant Dalai Lama is now saying that Europe is taking too many refugees then you must have a point Ernie.

jambalaya doesn’t make that claim with “the link to the sex assault story”, as he calls it.

So provide me with a link in which the notoriously racist and intolerant Dalai Lama is saying that if the UK doesn’t leave the EU Muslim men will rape European girls, smartarse.

Good rebut all of that Brexit movie, by a Swiss unhappy the way his country was used as an example, when the truth was quite different

He’s irritated that the film portrays his country as such a great success story outside the EU-when the Swiss buy into the Single Market, its rules, and have a Freedom of Movement arrangement with the EU. In fact, Switzerland had a long recession in the early 1990’s when they rejected, by referendum, EEA membership. After years of pain, they took up a freedom of movement arrangement with the EU, joined the Single Market and have done much better since. H
[video]https://youtu.be/MsNXmfqQqOU[/video]

The media have been focussing on this ‘can the Tory party reunite after the referendum, but I think one thing thats been quite enlightening about the ‘debate’ (such as it is) that, on a personal level, its certainly flushed out peoples real opinions.

I’ve found it quite surprising the amount of people who I previously thought were ok human beings, who’ve suddenly gone all EDL on social media, and have started posting up lots of Britain First nonsense, and quoting the Daily Mail.

“I do have to smile at those who” suggest that our attitutde towards the refugees crisis should fill us with pride rather than shame 😯

I do have to smile at those here who suggest we avoided the worst, eg euro and Schengen, if you can’t get currency and security (border control) right I have little faith in competancy in any other areas.

So some more simple question requiring nothing more than one word answers – here’s hoping:

1. Have we avoided them (ie, the euro,Schengen)? Yes or no?
2. Have we, with control, entered into currency arrangements that were flawed by design and execution and that harmed our economy? (Ask two of your front men about their experiences!) Yes or no?
3. Does the UK with its added security still have problems with control over its borders? Yes or no?
4. Has the net non EU migration exceeded government targets despite the use of a points based system.Yes or no?

By your own standards you are condemning the very alternative that you seek. An odd debating approach IMO. Given our own home grown incompetence in the critical areas that you define, it’s a good job we don’t have an army, eh?

The world is not black and white, either/or…..it’s messy and flawed like the individuals who populate it. So it is only honest to look at the EU and recognise the benefits and the weaknesses of the system before commenting on what our position should be. On balance it is difficult to argue (hence the lack of sensible answers) that we have not minimised the weaknesses and maximised the strengths of the EU in relation to the other parties involved. Whether that is by design or accident that is another matter. But to jeopardise such a strong position in favour of poorly thought through (if thought through at all) alternatives is a folly of staggering magnitude.

8 hours and no rebuttal or refutation of the points made in Ernies two links.

I’ve found it quite surprising the amount of people who I previously thought were ok human beings, who’ve suddenly gone all EDL on social media, and have started posting up lots of Britain First nonsense, and quoting the Daily Mail

I am surprised you keep such company Binners !! 😉

THM. Nail. Head.

Thanks for those links Ernie, nothing I hadn’t considered albeit over some time. My main critcism would be “what next?” In order to deal with the issues raised you would need a left government which seems a long way away right now.

But yeah, far more agreeable when you tackle problems rather than symptoms (real or imagined).

I’ve found it quite surprising the amount of people who I previously thought were ok human beings, who’ve suddenly gone all EDL on social media

Like I said a couple of pages back, it’s now ok to be racist again. It’s depressing to have my long held view confirmed that racism in this country was very far from being defeated. It would appear it’s merely been surpressed, and now the cork is out the bottle and we’re seeing the real situation. Irrespective of the referendum result, it’s going to take a long time to get back to the situation we thought we were at.

TMH you subbornly miss the point on here (but I strongly suspect not offline) that whether we are in the euro or Schengen we are absolutley impacted by them. Both are central to the whole EU project and both have been an unmitigated disaster and absolitely indicative of the incompetance and dysfunctionality of the EU.

We will be required to particpated (no choice) in the Greek bailout and propiing up “the system” when Italy and Spain teeter and we will ne negatively impacted as the EU slides further into recession as a result of that and the generally turgid EU responce to the 2007-8 crises. It matters very little whether we are in the euro. Its like be married to a drug addict, ot doesn’t matter that younare clean you are still heavily impacted

We are fortunate as an Island to the West of Europe to have many countries between us and the soirces of the migrant problems however with no border controls and no willingness to cinfront illegal migrants the problem arrives on our doorstep. Schengen is largely responsible for this fiasco as migrants well know and understand how it doesn’t work

We are independently the second largest donor after the US to support Syrian refugees but we still get caught up in EU incompetance as part of the €9bn Turkey has been promised as part of the migrant deal (which Amnesty International says is illegal btw)

@ernie lets be very clear here. Controlled immigration will favour migrants from Pakistan, Bangladesh and all other non-EU countires. The current system works against them.

@ernie lets be very clear here. Controlled immigration will favour migrants from Pakistan, Bangladesh and all other non-EU countires.

Not really. When kicking out the Poles and Romanians doesn’t solve the problems in housing, the NHS etc, attention will turn to the darkies. That’s what happens when you incite racism – the genie doesn’t go back in the bottle.

found it quite surprising the amount of people who I previously thought were ok human beings, who’ve suddenly gone all EDL on social media

This is exactly the point I have been trying to make for 3 years on here. If you don’t take firm and early action to deal with a problem it’s solution become only more difficult. If going “EDL” is the only solution on offer then thats the way people will react as they are given no other option. They have seen rhetoic from mainstream parties and no effective action just a deteriorating situation. There is a seismic shift to the right accross Europe as this issue has not been dealt with previously, we’ve seen it in Framce where previously far-left councils are now Front-National. As the ex-MI6 head says if people in Europe do not see effective action from their leadership there will be a reaction and he can already see it building.

Do not forget the poll is Austria was 50.3 vs 40.7 with the mainstream parties eliminated. France’s 2017 Presidial election is going to be UMP vs FN and Merkel looks increasingly weak ahead of 2017 with many believing she should not seek re-election.

The left,,centre and moderate rigt of European politics have failed in dealing with these key issues and the electorate are going to have their say against a worsening migrant crises and an ever weaker economy.

the electorate are going to have their say against a worsening migrant crises and an ever weaker economy.

Conflating these issues is just dishonest racism.

TMH you subbornly miss the point on here (but I strongly suspect not offline) that whether we are in the euro or Schengen we are absolutley impacted by them.

No I don’t. In or Out, we are affected by them indirectly, true. That is different to the direct impact and to the nature of our desired relationship with the area. It is the latter that we should be/are debating.

We will be required to particpated (no choice) in the Greek bailout and propiing up “the system” when Italy and Spain teeter and we will ne negatively impacted as the EU slides further into recession as a result of that and the generally turgid EU responce to the 2007-8 crises.

We both know the reality of the EFSM and the fact that legally this is confined to EZ members. That was clarified last year. We also know that our previous support was colateralised and paid back. SCAREMONGERING.

It matters very little whether we are in the euro. Its like be married to a drug addict, ot doesn’t matter that younare clean you are still heavily impacted

On the contrary, it matters a lot. Just look at the relative performance of the UK v RoEurope since the crisis.

We are fortunate as an Island to the West of Europe to have many countries between us and the soirces of the migrant problems however with no border controls and no willingness to cinfront illegal migrants the problem arrives on our doorstep. Schengen is largely responsible for this fiasco as migrants well know and understand how it doesn’t work

BS. Go to Lesbos and ask the pathetic figures being rescued from leaking boats and who have endured appalling suffering how much they understand about the ins and outs of Schengen.

We are independently the second largest donor after the US to support Syrian refugees but we still get caught up in EU incompetance as part of the €9bn Turkey has been promised as part of the migrant deal (which Amnesty International says is illegal btw)

We have done the bare minimum. That does not make me proud. On the contrary…

@ernie lets be very clear here. Controlled immigration will favour migrants from Pakistan, Bangladesh and all other non-EU countires. The current system works against them.

in response to the facts that EU migrants contribute more than they take out, you refer to enlargement to poorer countries and that this is a problem. Compare their GDP per cappita etc with Pakistan and Bangladesh and revert at your leisure.

This is exactly the point I have been trying to make for 3 years on here.

So if I’ve got this right, if we don’t pander to the racists and give them what they want, then it’s our fault that they exist? Is that it? 😕

Conflating these issues is just dishonest racism.

DrJ if I may say so you have your head so deep in the sand it’s frightening. You are refusing to acknowledge a real issue people are gravely concerned about. Calling them racists isn’t going to work. surely you can see that over the last 3 years. Why don’t you go over to Austria with your accusations of racism. I have posted before about the number ofmeople who come to vote Leave stalls who are deeply offended to have been called racists when all theynare concerned about is the idiocy of uncontrolled freedom of movement between countries of hugely differing economic success.

Politics generally shifts to the right in terms of economic stress and Europe stands on the edge of an even deeper recession than we saw in 2008-10.

We and especially the EU have failed to deal with a legitimate concern of the people and we are seeing the consequences. I don’t want to see far right governments in Europe, its terriying but thats whats coming. The EU referendum could well be won for Leave on this issue and the Remainers will only have themselves to blame for failing to engage properly and simply insulting people by calling them racist.

EU freedom of movement is a discriminatory policy working against the rest of the world be they Asians, Africans and Latin Americans. This and its uncontrollable.

willburt, you are still waiting for the three points in favour of OUT (although EL’s link is admittedly of interest). So let’s look at the offical line becasue very helpfully they have set out their case on one PPT slide. Its not three points but here we go.

The first point is normally the most important so lets see…

The PMs deal leaves the EU in charge of the same things after his negotiation as before

Factually incorrect, but there is a valid point that Dave is guilty of overselling the nature of the negotiations and the result. But, and its an important but, the UK’s position on key areas of relevant concern (€, Schengen etc) were clarified and I have posted the documents three times above. Not exactly a KO killer first blow. Perhaps it gets better?

Its not legally binding – the EC can tear it up after the referendum

Be serious. Nothing more to add, it doesn’t.

So far, so bad, lets get on to the real meat of the argument

This is dangerous [no really]. WE will keep spending at least £350m a week abroad

A blatant lie

Immigration will continue out of control putting public services like the NHS under strain

So here we go incite xenophobia and racism and link it to the national treasure that is the NHS. No evidence to support this historically or suggest that the link is valid. The NHS has real problems but immigration is not the root casue. Brexit BS at its best

The EC will be in charge of our borders, immigration, asylum and even our intelligence services

Not true

Is we Vote Leave, we will take back control and can spend money on our priorities

Not true. Leaving aside the control that we already have, we still have to give up many of the current aspects that VL are concerned about as part of the future negotiations. You saw the NL response to points idea yesterday.

We already spend money on our priorities. We also get to vote on parties depending on their different (perceived or otherwise) priorities at the GE (“Control”}

So silliness, blatant lies and xenophobia. The choice is yours….

I can’t wait for the bit of the campaign were the rest of Europe is advised to be super nice to the UK to help us stay in (like the Scotland referendum). I was hoping that a whole load of freebies would come our way, wine and cheese from France, Sausage and cars from Germany, free holidays Spain, plumbers from Poland, more cars and wine from Italy, Vodka from Finland and control of our fishing rights from the EU commission.

This morning BS form one side was “we’ll lose our rights to holiday pay”. Both sides really talking utter rubbish most of the time. I really would like to hear some of the discussion from left, middle and right why they want to stay or leave. Am sick of hearing the “facts” from either side, though I do blaim sections of the media for this as they seem intent on the personalities not what I suspect are at times intelligent views either way. Just sometimes we really do miss Tony Benn, Roy Jenkins, Ted heath, types who’d debate these issues in an intelligent way and explain why and for what reason. Perhaps I’m not really tuned into the sound bite fear culture.

Corbyn. Blimey these are some interesting comments from a Remain campaigner (at least publocally so anyway)

Osboune’s economic statements are “histrionics” (agreed)

We cannot control immigration (agreed)

The TTIP is a bad deal and he would withdraw from it if in government (imo not possible if its an EU trade treaty without withdrawing from the EU)

EDIT: “None of us are satisfied with the EU as it is” (agreed) what JC is ignoring is its going to change furher and we will be even more disatisfied

Whilst I’m still an undecided voter I can’t see how free migration within Europe, leading to a brain drain in the East so they can pick our cabbages in the West, can be considered a good thing?

Yes, some money may flow towards the East but what about helping to actually to develop nations so that they can be on an equal standing to those in the West, rather than just be a supplier of cheap labour?