Thread derailment?

Still no plan.

You upper middle classes are such a weird bunch…Manners above everything even sense

Jam is entitled to his opinion whether or not you like it. It is your opinion that he is talking shite. You don’t have to be his best buddy but you do have to be polite. End of. Abuse is never called for. It’s nasty, corrosive, and above all utterly unhelpful. No-one ever changed their mind because they were verbally abused.

If this turns into a slag-fest, it loses all possible meaning that it might ever have had.

It is important that you call out his bullshit, and anyone else’s bullshit, but you must do it constructively – refute his points. Don’t just get nasty. It’s morally wrong, and it won’t achieve anything except the destruction of sensible debate.

When will common sense break out on the busted flush that is Brexit??

The Tories are fing clueless & Labour won’t tell anyone what they want.

Neither party has a clue on how to achieve It…

Any chance we can just forget the referendum like a big night on the lash & waking up to something we’d rather not, then quietly sneaking out before they wake??

Labour have told us what they want.

The leadership want exactly the same as the Tories, but to then take their place to patch things up differently afterwards.
Of course, lots of Labour and Tory MPs think all the damage needs to be mitigated, by either staying linked as closely as possible to the EU/EEA, or staying in.
Leadership of both parties united as to how to leave, just not on how to rebuild afterwards.

Labour have told us what they want

What is it then?

With specifics please.

But there aren’t any are there.

Nobodies got a chuffing clue what they want & how to acheuve it.

The only ones with any idea are those who want a hard Brexit & god help us if we end up with that!

It is your opinion that he is talking shite.

not its what the facts say

if i say the world is flat I am talking shite because it is not, ditto saying brexit has not been a problem. its not an opinion its just wrong. No one has attempted to agree with his analysis

I only pointed out he is wrong

so far Brexit has not been a problem.

inflation , growth , reduced investment and the exchange rates are facts that would disagre ewiht your unbridled [ and unfounded] illusory optomism[/quote]
is this personal or rude?

teamhurtmore – Member
Democracy is fuelled by lies – remember the Scottish referendum?

It’s amazing how immune you are to your own bullshit.

Only way to guarantee EU membership, anyone? 😆

Still at least no one is suggesting that these fools should be in charge of more of our lives – imagine that?!?

I’m still waiting on you explaining how your anarchist utopia will work in practice? 😉 😆

With specifics please.

All the benefits (except one of the key ones, because of foreigner blaming swing voters) with non of the commitments (apart from the one that hasn’t been ruled out, ie financial contributions of some kind).

Exactly the same as May and Davies et al.

And, no, it doesn’t make sense.

And, no, not supported by their MPs, members, or voters.

You’ll forgive me for tittering and trying not to spill my coffee Molgrips, I won’t be a prick and remind you of all the names you called me on the iDave threads. 😛

As for sensible debate, that is soemthing Brexit is devoid of, in the real world or on STW. This thread is an accurate reflection of how the two camps behave in the real world. Johnson liar extraordinary and Farage xenophobe when he is’nt being plain racist for the Brixit camp – the rational, realistic, pragmatic and people with something to lose in the Remain camp.

Strip away the noise and both parties are calling for a bespoke deal. We all know that there are inherent contradictions in the positions of both side, hence the need for negotiation and compromise – and a lengthy transition

Starker was clear on the objectives he wants which is why he/they were PO with their colleagues last night.

Morning Joe! I am not advocating anarchy merely less state involvement not more.

And, no, it doesn’t make sense.

😆

Quite!

minarchist utopia then! 😉

I’m still struggling to see how less regulation, you know the type that cause the financial cr…the great robbery, in the first place, will help matters.

Not really advocating that either. Next?

Don’t forget the heavy hand of the state and its institutions in the GFC. Bill telling banks tokens to those who could not afford to pay the loans back. Remember ?!?

Jam is entitled to his opinion whether or not you like it

He is indeed. What he is not entitled to do is to pretend that his “opinion” is based on fact.

You’ll forgive me for tittering and trying not to spill my coffee Molgrips, I won’t be a prick and remind you of all the names you called me on the iDave threads.

I made the distinction between criticising your posts and abusing you. There is a clear difference – to me anyway.

And I accept that I could have been wrong though, and I would not try to justify it if so 🙂

What he is not entitled to do is to pretend that his “opinion” is based on fact.

Well, the concept of ‘fact’ is actually quite fluid, but that aside – no-one should abuse him for it. Criticise his logic, yes, but not abuse him.

teamhurtmore – Member
Not really advocating that either. Next?

Don’t forget the heavy hand of the state and its institutions in the GFC. Bill telling banks tokens to those who could not afford to pay the loans back. Remember ?!?Aye, that’s the de-regulation part. Quite aware that states were complicit in the scam.

He is indeed. What he is not entitled to do is to pretend that his “opinion” is based on fact.

This.

To argue otherwise makes you complicit in his lies & as dubious a character.

Sorry, I have no time for liers & those who deliberately distort reality to steve there own nefarious aims.

Call those out who do.

I am not advocating anarchy merely less state involvement not more.

I’ve recently seen a tower block burn over that.

Indeed the problem is we had a world with less regulation and it led to the dark satanic mills where we actually had to legislate to reduce child labour hours to a mere 12 hours a day [ excluding breaks]

Whilst we can all agree that in some areas there is too much interference the problem is the unregulated market seeks out the lowest cost with the greatest profit with , literally, the costs being lives.

Unfortunately it is what we have to do to control those who put money before peoples lives

Some of it may be intrusive but the alternative is far far worse.

He is indeed. What he is not entitled to do is to pretend that his “opinion” is based on fact.

I dunno, he suppose he’s entitled to do both of those things. Just as we’re entitled to refute those claims with pesky things like evidence.

Speaking of which,

Actually so far Brexit has not been a problem.

I’ll just leave this here:

http://uk.businessinsider.com/uk-economy-q1-gdp-third-estimate-brexit-2017-6

“Britain [is] the worst performing major economy on earth right now.”

Assuming Greece etc are on earth, that’s worse than Greece etc.

molgrips – Member

Edukator – Reformed Troll
You’ll forgive me for tittering and trying not to spill my coffee Molgrips, I won’t be a prick and remind you of all the names you called me on the iDave threads.

I made the distinction between criticising your posts and abusing you. There is a clear difference – to me anyway.[/quote]
😆 So funny …

I don’t think Cougar read the actual report :0(

Looks like LePen is in a bit of hot water…

I dunno, he suppose he’s entitled to do both of those things. Just as we’re entitled to refute those claims with pesky things like evidence.

If you want, but after we’ve done that, and he continues … errr … fibbing, we’re entitled to stop treating him like a serious commentator, and more like an object of ridicule.

Do you not know where the line is between dismissing someone’s opinions and abusing the person?

we have folk who do, so use the report post button and stop wasting forum time with this

some of what is said to him on here is rude
Unfortunately its often an accurate description of what he does on here so let the mods decide.

Do you not know where the line is between dismissing someone’s opinions and abusing the person?

I know where I think it is. Perhaps that since facts for you are a fluid concept you have another idea?

Fighty fighty.

Returning slightly to topic, I think Labour want the following – keep the Leave-voter portion of their traditional vote under the illusion Britain is going to leave the EU so a short-notice GE is winnable until the realisation that Brexit is and always was never a realistic possibility in any meaningful way hoves fully into mainstream view and they can then be the party to formally consign the whole idiotic idea to the dustbin of history to the relief of everyone bar the hardcore Tory eye-swivellers, the right-wing press and the Spitfire-and-crumpets nostalgists who, by that point, will represent nothing other than their own naked self interest and far-fetched daydreams.

The leadership can endorse Brexit to respect democracy, and backbenchers representing remain constituencies can rebel to stay with their conscience or appease their constituents. Not a bad strategy I’d have thought. With both main parties for Brexit and the only serious remain party struggling to hold onto that accolade, it seems to work.

2tyred – I think you’re probably right that Labour want to avoid needlessly alienating the Brexiters, especially with pointless grandstanding like Chuka Umuna’s latest narcissistic display.

what, a man of principle standing up for what he (you and I) believes in, from the backbenches and against leadership intent on harming the UK economy – and you criticise him for that!?!? What an odd world….

I think this article pretty much sums up the somewhat ambiguous stance by The Labour Party on Brexit.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2017/06/jeremy-corbyn-faces-dilemma-brexit-solidifies-which-half-his-voters-should-he

Assuming Greece etc are on earth, that’s worse than Greece etc.

Is Greece considered a major economy? (Economics is, well, I know squat about it TBH.)

I don’t think Cougar read the actual report :0(

What did I miss (see above)?

Is this any better?

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-economy-idUKKBN19L0XG

I’m with Gary Lineker here – http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/gary-lineker-describes-feeling-politically-homeless-as-jeremy-corbyn-sacks-soft-brexit-backers/ar-BBDsW6N?li=AAmiR2Z&ocid=spartandhp
But even if you don’t agree, the suggestion that he could lead a new party called centre forward is pretty good!

The article that C linked is rather sensational. – the UK still grew by 2% YoY

Nevertheless the underlying message is valid – the U.K. Economy is slowing, real wages are stagnant, people are still heavily in debt and inflation has risen (see real wages). Puts the BoE in a v tricky position re IRs

Brexit merely makes a bad situation worse

Further reading on poor Marine’s latest travails.

amazing how many of the racist right wing anti EU lot used MEP as a route to political success and then fiddled the fees to fund their party

I am sure this is all the fault of the corrupt EU

Be fair, Farage et al know the EU is corrupt, they have proof the EU is corrupt, precisely because of the way his party and his far right brethren mis-used funds.