oldracer – Member

Adding to that, & again happy to be proved wrong, how many folks end up in A & E after night because they are too drunk to get a cab? I only have the stories I hear from my brother, whose a paramedic in Bristol, at the w/e most of his work is picking up drunks. Now if you had to swipe your card before a getting in the ambulance at the end of a night on the lash might you go home before you got that wasted?

No. Because nobody goes out with the intention of going home in an ambulance, regardless of whether that’d cost them money or not. it’s always an unintended consequence and you can’t deter that with charging.

Kind of like increased sentencing doesn’t deter if the criminal assumes they won’t get caught- people don’t go “I’ll go out murdering because if I get caught it’s only 10 years” or “I’d like to go out murdering but if I get caught it’s 20 years, that’s too much”, they go “I won’t get caught”

Only problem is that doesn’t seem to work – so what do we do? How do you raise the extra cash that’s needed? The amount to money the NHS needs to function happily is, well, name a figure today & it’ll be a different one by tomorrow…

Have a look at what has happened to Corporation Tax over the last seven years.

There’s plenty of money out there. Tons of it in fact. Money where mouth is, I’m happy to pay more tax in exchange for better services.

What are we still arguing about NHS funding? It’s sorted. £350 million extra a week to pay non existing nurses and doctors, and buy increasingly expensive drugs… GO!

Have a look at what has happened to Corporation Tax over the last seven years.

Indeed.

No. Because nobody goes out with the intention of going home in an ambulance, regardless of whether that’d cost them money or not. it’s always an unintended consequence and you can’t deter that with charging.

Kind of like increased sentencing doesn’t deter if the criminal assumes they won’t get caught- people don’t go “I’ll go out murdering because if I get caught it’s only 10 years” or “I’d like to go out murdering but if I get caught it’s 20 years, that’s too much”, they go “I won’t get caught”

Some truth in that, though according to my bro, he’s picked up plenty (He’s a paramedic in Bristol) who are just too wasted to make their own way home…should they be blocking a bed in A & E just because they’ve no self-control?

@boardinbob – that might explain the rules but does not answer controlling immigration.

From a hypothetical perspective if 500k EU citizens were able to arrive tomorrow could the UK government stop it?

No. So that means EU migration cannot be controlled.

From a hypothetical perspective if a million asylum seekers (edit: I probably mean refugees here) turned up on our beaches tomorrow we would be obliged to take them in under our legal obligations.

There’s plenty of money out there. Tons of it in fact. Money where mouth is, I’m happy to pay more tax in exchange for better services.

Exactly. I am also happy to pay more tax. I even voted for a party that would put taxes up and use the money on health and education.

From a hypothetical perspective if a million asylum seekers (edit: I probably mean refugees here) turned up on our beaches tomorrow we would be obliged to take them in under our legal obligations.

Yep, and if 10 million people from the UK decided to go and live in France they could do that to. Good isn’t it.

Basically, in order to cut immigration to any significant extent, you either have to prevent students coming here paying lots of money to attend our world-class universities, or you have to split up international families, or you have to cut off the labour supply for major industries. What is your choice (in detail please) and why?

oldracer – Member

Some truth in that, though according to my bro, he’s picked up plenty (He’s a paramedic in Bristol) who are just too wasted to make their own way home…should they be blocking a bed in A & E just because they’ve no self-control?

What’s your alternative? Charge them? They don’t have any money, leave them where they are? You pick someone up who says she’s fine, do you charge them? Someone says they’ve been roofied?

Actually there’s some really good alternatives but they’re unpopular because they seem too nice. Maidstone did a pilot- a Drunk Bus, basically, it dealt with minor injuries, incapacitated people, and also was generally a place to get a bit of help- people lost or pissed-but-not-collapsed or whatever. It cut antisocial behaviour and was estimated to have saved teh NHS £125000 a year.

bloody do gooders help folk and saving money

flanagaj – Member

@boardinbob – that might explain the rules but does not answer controlling immigration.

From a hypothetical perspective if 500k EU citizens were able to arrive tomorrow could the UK government stop it?

No. So that means EU migration cannot be controlled.

After 3 months if they didn’t have work, they could. so yes it can be controlled. It just isn’t.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/23/brexit-may-blocked-unilateral-offer-for-eu-citizens-rights-last-june

Osbourne seems to be enjoying driving that knife into May. I wouldn’t say stabbing in the back either.

From a hypothetical perspective if 500k EU citizens were able to arrive tomorrow could the UK government stop it?

If there are the jobs then they can stay, if there aren’t they have to go. What Westminster choses to do within the EU framework is the UKs problem not the EU. That most brexiteers aren’t aware of how badly the UKs government has failed them is depressing. Only adds to the sense of foreboding when they realise that they have been taken for idiots.

Motorways. Often jammed up. What do you do? Do you build more lanes? Well, no, that doesn’t work, just generates more traffic. So, what next? It seems, that the next best option is to try & manage the flow of traffic & folks driving habits so traffic keeps moving.

Or think about the bigger picture, why are people driving, more trains instead. why do people drive big cars that waste space, so incentivise smaller cars. Why are some M-ways rammed and others not, maybe you can relocate some capacity etc.

What our governments have been truly crap at is the big picture, UK governments have been firefighting for decades, how long has it taken to consider HS2 or heathrow, what about the age structure of UK power generation. etc etc. Look at education, health, transport, etc etc etc. all barely fit for purpose and patched together.

+10000000
only looking as far as the next GE. 🙄

mrmo – Member
If there are the jobs then they can stay, if there aren’t they have to go.

If there is a job for non-EU people can they stay (assuming the got the job)? 🙄

What Westminster choses to do within the EU framework is the UKs problem not the EU.

We have decided to ditch the EU bureaucratic framework. Simple.
We don’t want their “glittering gold” or whatever they have on offer. 😆

That most brexiteers aren’t aware of how badly the UKs government has failed them is depressing.

I don’t see it that way because all govts (ALL and I mean ALL over the world) are the same in terms of bad management. It is just that some are less worst. Therefore, what you are saying is nothing new. It is normal in every sense.

Only adds to the sense of foreboding when they realise that they have been taken for idiots.

Are you more intelligent? 😆

i know, i know, replying to chewie…

…we have decided to ditch the EU bureaucratic framework.

except we haven’t.

everything we sell to the EU, will be subject the same EU bureaucracy as before. if anything, even more…

(and of course, we won’t have any position to influence that bureaucracy)

It’s the tax TAKE not the tax RATE that’s important. Just saying I’m prepared to pay more tax says little, however well meaning the intention.

If there is a job for non-EU people can they stay (assuming the got the job)?

Not automatically, no. Why would there be?

t’s the tax TAKE not the tax RATE that’s important.

and a good way to increase the tax TAKE is….

everything we sell to the EU, will be subject the same EU bureaucracy as before. if anything, even more…

And much of that “bureaucracy” is good as it ensures good standards are maintained.

and a good way to increase the tax TAKE is….

good luck getting a straight answer 😉

and a good way to increase the tax TAKE is….

Make the buggers actually pay?

Drunk Bus

Great idea.

They don’t have any money, leave them where they are?

Spend there last bit of money on a cab home rather than on another round?

I’d be happy to pay something at point of service, even if it’s only tuppence, if it’s going to go directly into the NHS & but I resent an increase in tax when there’s still a small section of society who abuse the system & I am effectively subsiding.

I’m not saying means testing is the only way to fund the NHS but it could be an additional way – likewise lifestyle illnesses.

Incentivising folks to take better care of themselves by hitting their pockets if they don’t might be another way of helping the NHS.

Simply rasing taxes is not the answer & will not solve other problems the NHS is currently facing.

We need to have a multi-faceted approach to its problems.

oldracer – Member

Spend there last bit of money on a cab home rather than on another round?

Ah a time machine

The other thing is, as I understand it, the NHS is very good at reactive health care but not so good at proactive I.e. self care et al.

A change there could help..?

Ah a time machine

No, it’s called taking responsibility for onself & ones actions, not discharging them to someone else..

Any chance you could take this to another thread oldracer & co?

We’re giving the NHS £350 million more a week, and telling nurses that we’re training “our own” so that they can “go home”… so job done as far as leaving the EU to save the NHS… additional improvements, if any are needed after such a wonder fix, aren’t really related to leaving the EU.

What happened to the Drunk Bus btw? Still running? If you pardon the pun!

Almost done kelvin – I’ve said all I can think of promise!

oldracer – Member

No, it’s called taking responsibility for onself & ones actions, not discharging them to someone else..

Nah, it’s about the unexpected. Wishing you had £10 for a taxi after you missed your last bus home isn’t the same as keeping £10 in your pocket when you’re sure you’ll get the bus.

But besides, you don’t get a lift in an ambulance just because you’ve got no money for a taxi. You get medical attention when you’re incapable.

Food for thought NW – the NHS doesn’t entirely agree with you:

Graun link

The skew of EU migrants in vs UK nationals out to other EU states just reinforces my view that EU migration is not balanced.

Link

British nationals choosing to make the old eastern bloc countries their home looks countable on one hand 😆

why does it have to be balanced?

British nationals choosing to make the old eastern bloc countries their home looks countable on one hand

??

does your hand have 50,000 fingers?

and agreed what possible difference does it make whether its balanced or not?

oldracer – Member

Food for thought NW – the NHS doesn’t entirely agree with you:

You realise the line about “using us as a taxi service” is talking specifically about someone who plans to drink himself into oblivion so that he needs an ambulance? That’s a medical issue through and through

You seem intent on absolving folks of any responsibility of their actions…even when the NHS themselves say they think folks need to…?

Just to clarify – do you disagree with any of these statements:
(they are all from NHS staff in the link)

” Often they don’t need A&E help – they just need to sleep it off” – a paramedic.
““A lot of people treat the ambulance like a free cab service,” says Ged Blizzard, director of emergency services for the North West Ambulance Service, citing a man in Manchester who rang to ask if he could book an ambulance for 11.45 in case he needed one due to drinking too much.”
“We definitely have our ‘regulars’,” says the paramedic outside the Royal Liverpool, who asks to remain anonymous.”

I love the idea of a Drunk Bus – I think it’s great & if it worked likes you said I’m fully behind it.

BUT folks do need to take responsibility for their actions & stop abusing the system, even the NHS think so.

There’s also this reinforcing your point:

“One of the challenges in A&E is to distinguish between someone who is simply drunk and someone who has been drinking but also has a serious medical problem. There is a tendency to blame every drinker for their predicament, but there are 1.5 million people in this country dependent on, or addicted to, alcohol – which is an illness. Alcohol may be legal, but it is a drug of dependence, and how we use it is a huge issue affecting society.”
Prof Gilmore, Royal College of Physicians

It’s simply not one sided & I’m glad I don’t have the responsibility to unpick it!

possible difference does it make whether its balanced or not?

Zzzzz. Why do I waste time on this forum arguing the toss with a load of socialists.

Mods. Delete my account!!!

FLOUNCE 😆