Best “out” post on the thread, Slackalice. Worthy of Rudi Dutschke.

slackalice – Member

Main reason is that the current system and allegiances are clearly not working, the rich are getting richer and the poor poorer. If this is what we want to continue, then vote stay.

However, I believe we need to challenge the establishment and the safety of the status quo, because if we remain, we’re going to be in for at least another 25 years of delusional government and corporate leadership, which on a social platform, just isn’t working.

While I totally agree with this, I don’t see that an Out vote helps. I suspect it might well make it worse.

Right on Alice

I see no one has commented on Blair’s statement that EU migrants come to take the low paid jobs British citizens won’t do

This 100%, they do: My mate farms and grows daffs. They are time sensitive and his experience is that if he wants them out and in a shop sooner then it is pointless to rely on local workers. He feels that too many local people think it is beneath them.

Nice one Alice, I don’t agree but a very constructive argument that didn’t mention immigrants or £350m bollocks.

Slackalice – Well done. You have submitted the best post of this whole thread.
Dr. J – We have no control over TTIP under the EU and all the GM food associated with it. That’s ok with you though.

under the EU and all the GM food associated with it. That’s ok with you though

No issue with Gm food here.

Thanks Edukator, best compliment I’ve had for a while 😀

@ seosamh – as soon as I’ve had a cup of tea and a g or two of south America’s finest 😉

@Dr J – how do you know? I’ll go all religion thread-esque and ask you to prove your assertions 😉

Only a fool will keep banging their head against a wall and expect a different outcome ( or whatever the exact quote is, but the essence remains the same). Change is needed and whilst I agree that leaving the federal states of Europe might not be the answer, at least by trying something different, we can start to trying to find out what will work.

I haven’t read too much of this thread, so apologies if this article has already been posted, but I found it offering an interesting opinion:

Richard Heller – From those wonderful folks who brought you the Iraq war

Good post slackalice. Now sit back and await the disapproving crowd to jump in.

duckman
Obviously you would,as you post bollocks sorry; “opinion” such gems such as your Scottish white van man to suggest that 45% of the population voted out of anti-English sentiment. Factually incorrect,and statistically unsupported,which will be further reinforced by the % of the remain vote up here, but hey;it’s your opinion. The point I was making was that some of the same people accusing Scots who voted yes of nationalism at best ( Boris) seem now to embraced the argument the Nats used. Uncaring dominant neighbour,lack of control over our own fate,too much meddling etc. Amazing( not really) And I have to say that Boris and a Brexit will be a fantastic advert of independence. So tempting!

I said no such thing about 45% percent of Scots being like white van van . I am sure I spoke of a not insignificant minority.

That post of yours is gem. It shows how similar your viewpoint is to Boris’, just a different focal point for your nationalism. At least I frown on both. Who’s nationalism is best duckman?

As Salmond has said and you point out I reckon a Brexit will quite reasonably bring on calls for a second indy vote.

Talk about being caught between a rock and a hard place. If it happens I might spoil my vote by writing the lyrics to the chorus of Stealers Wheels greatest hit.

Main reason is that the current system and allegiances are clearly not working, the rich are getting richer and the poor poorer. If this is what we want to continue, then vote stay.

So how exactly does voting out change the outcomes that you dislike?

Income inequality is not confined to the EU or even the developed world.

As NW suggests, be careful what you wish for….

@Dr J – how do you know? I’ll go all religion thread-esque and ask you to prove your assertions

Seems to me that you are the one making dramatic assertions about how wonderful life will be once we cast off the yoke of Brussels and rely on the Bullingdon Club for our saviours.

The war criminal Tony Blair wants us to remain. He has feathered his nest very nicely with an EU position that has led to him being worth 20-odd million pounds. Pass the champers brother Tony !

Out of interest, when did we join a federated states of Europe?

I think I might change bikes, it will probably lead to curing cancer

We have no control over TTIP

shirley a veto is control? not that I’d expect the uk to use it mind, I suspect our leaders are one of the most in favour of ttip.. I’ve not heard a lot of complaints coming from them anyhow…

The EU rubber stamp on Tony Blair’s appointment as Middle East Peace Envoy brought shame on Brussels. A more partial candidate would have been hard to find – I started a thread about his hat beacause his bias was so obvious. Eight years of shame.

So let me get this right…. the fearless leader who will guide us to the nirvana of a more just and equal society, and free us from our capitalist oppressors is…..

Boris Johnson?

Binners, No, that’s you putting spin on what was said. 🙂

binners – Member

So let me get this right…. the fearless leader who will lead us into the nirvana of a more just and equal society, and free us from our capitalist oppressors is…..

Boris Johnson?

Risky one there binners, considering you’re currently walking hand in hand with a pig ****. 😉

The EU takes decisions one step further from the voter, which I don’t like.
I do like democracy, unlike your president, Juncker.
Almost surprised the hive haven’t made more of it.

The EU takes decisions one step further from the voter, which I don’t like.

Again not really backed up by any facts, you remember how we vote for Mep’s most people don’t bother so it’s easy to understand why they feel disconnected.

@seaso do we have a veto on a new trade agreement or is that majority voting ? Genuine question.

@mike the MEP have no real power, they cannot propose laws. All they can do is talk and approve or decline what is put in front of them, the cannot set policy. The EU should just be hinest with people and abolish the Parliament and have the Council formally and visibly in control instead kf the current deception.

@slack indeed, the Establishment vote is Remain. That’s why over his whole career Corbyn has been against – he is just falling into line as Party leadsr and going with the official party position. If he wasn’t leader the would imo be campaigning for Leave

thebees – Member

Dr. J – We have no control over TTIP under the EU

But that’s a good thing, because we have one of the most pro-TTIP governments in Europe, and David Cameron praising himself for having the “courage” to sell us out. How does leaving the EU help us here?

Again not really backed up by any facts

Well I don’t get to vote for the people who draft the laws.

jambalaya – Member
@seaso do we have a veto on a new trade agreement or is that majority voting ? Genuine question

I don’t know for sure tbh, I’d imagine we do though for something so big, happy to be corrected if wrong though..

My main point was the lack of protest from any of our elected leaders though.

Uk. Civil servants draft most UK laws, that would be a hell of an interview panel wouldn’t it.

Voting for an MEP is an illusion of democracy. You are effectively voting for somebody else to vote, but who will be massively outnumbered. Even worse if you don’t believe in the idea of the EU to begin with.

Come on @mike, the EU Parliament is a deception plus a grand excerize in cushy jobs for the boys/girls, a sort of never mind the quality feel the width bureaucracy 🙂

@seaso we saw how much say we had in the appointment of Junker to the most important position in the EU. Even being caught red handed with his hands on the controls of billions worth of highly dodgy tax corporate evasion deals which the EU subsequently declared illegal. The result, nothinghe carries on and they take the whistleblowers to court and threaten to throw them in jail

You are effectively voting for somebody else to vote, but

So you have seen the UK Parliament then? How about the Lords?

mikewsmith – Member

Uk. Civil servants draft most UK laws, that would be a hell of an interview panel wouldn’t it.

I can only imagine you’re pretending you don’t know the differences between the EU and the UK.
Do I really need to explain it all in detail? I don’t have the time for a full on Junkychat!

Care to comment on your mate Juncker?

We can only take down one bureaucratic institution at a time. House of Lords is next on the list !

Sbob not at all, more the point that most of the laws the UK is subject to are drafted by civil servants, you know unelected bureaucrats – exactly what your complaining about. With the eu stuff the UK gets to veto stuff it doesn’t like once it’s gets to the unelected upper house.

I think the amount of stuff forced upon the UK by the eu is easily found in one of the fact checks, it’s a lot less than you think.

@seaso we saw how much say we had in (insert issue)

Jamba, that’s just the Scottish argument that they never get their way at Westminister. I disagreed with that then, and I still do, it’s not un democratic, just a different level of democracy. ie we have the european level to the national level to the regional to the local level, there will always be layers of democracy.

On the Scottish side, I just take a different approach. Not that Westminster is undemocratic, just that it largely becomes an un-necessary layer on top of Scotland, particularly as the Scottish parliament gets more powerful ad europe gets closer.

I believe as Europe becomes more integrated, which it will, Scotland should have its own voice on a European level.

I’m just struggling with one thing. Could the Outers tell me how a victorious Boris Johnson, installed in Downing Street, accompanied by the most ultra Right Wing cabinet this country has ever seen, once freed from the shackles of EU beurocrats, will set about making all our lives better?

Off you go…..

Having Boris as our glorious leader is appealing. You’d have absolutely no idea what happen, but whatever it was, it would be funny.

I’m sold.

There is no manifesto from such a government. How the heck would we know how our lives would be changed ?

@binners for me that’s a stupid and short term argument. Same as the Scottish one about tory governments. Voting for a one way massive irreversible change to sort out a government you can change every 5 years is childish and short sighted.

Which exactly are the terrible laws that the undemocratic EU has forced on us and which prevent us from fulfilling our manifest destiny to lead the world? I mean, apart from the bendy bananas one of course.

In or out, Boris would get in depending on him securing party leader nomination AND not ballsing up his election campaign. Less we forget countless Tory and Labour leaders have ballsed up their campaign (The Mekon, the other bald one IDS), the character from creature comforts/Wallace & Gromit etc.

Is being in the EU currently as good as it gets or am I to think ‘my house value may drop if we leave’ (im more bothered about other things).

As I said before the remain camp has some real choice politicians. You are aligned with call me Dave binners along with Brown who fragged our economy.

mikewsmith – Member

Sbob not at all, more the point that most of the laws the UK is subject to are drafted by civil servants

How do these drafts get heard in the UK?

How much influence do our MEPs have?

How about the EU’s leader’s dislike of democracy?