Thanks. Hope someone who actually cares about the debate can sift through all the noise in this thread and find some real answers.

I have to admit your post helped clarify a few of my thoughts, and introduced a few more 🙂

good article Junky, hasn’t Tyrie had run-in’s with Boris before? I remember them going at each other in a committee? (or did I dream that?)

I’ve just watched “Brexit the Movie” and if the boss of JML is wanting out then that’s good enough for me…

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYqzcqDtL3k[/video]

Having now made up my mind to stay, 100%, I am now fearful, like you, that the only ones who will be compelled to vote in numbers are those who are in favour of leaving.

You also touched on a point that has been really bugging me, since this whole referendum was announced: When it was confirmed who were going to lead the two campaigns, I was fearful this would come down to a vote of personality i.e. vote for the side led by the personality you hate the least. I have even heard people say they will vote to leave, purely because it will get rid of Cameron. That is no foundation on which to base such an important decision, especially as Cameron’s position is not up for question here.

I wasn’t even registered to vote until yesterday

So how long has it been since you CBA’d to vote?

chewkw – Member
seosamh77 – Member
chewkw, have you ever noticed, everyone ignores you…
Yes, I have …
Several reasons:
1. They are unable to counter my views.
2. My interpretation is completely different from theirs.
3. They do not understand how to handle a different cultural response.
4. I am just one person so not worth the effort to reply to my views.
However, I am here to provide alternative views based on a far flung culture which judging from STW profile is truly lacking.
Also, I noticed that the ones that response to me are genuine people that truly know how to communicate.

The tragedy is you actually believe that.

The Ctte are merely confirming something that was obvious from the start. I first picked up,the OUTers here on page 14 three months ago about misstating the size of the contribution and have been regularly asking Jambas, as he is officially an OUT campaigner, why OUTers have persisted in using this lie. And to do so in such a visible manner – the BS bus and the BS website.

It’s an appalling debate which again was foretold

teamhurtmore – Member 
What are the advantages and what are the disadvantages?

Is a very good point – there is a very real need for some sober analysis. I fear, however, that the EU referendum debate will make the Scottish referendum debate seem well-informed – which would be a massive achievement by any standards.

QT was generally awful on the Beeb last night apart from the Lib/Dem and Labour ladies. Worse is to come, no doubt….

POSTED 3 MONTHS AGO #

I was hoping to be proved wrong, but sadly…..

Just watched QT on iPlayer. I haven’t really seen David Davies before, and on that performance, I don’t ever want to see him again – a more pompous condescending complacent liar you’d go a long way to find!!

Hang on , I thought he wiped the floor with the others 😉 at least that is what I was told earlier ^

He certainly talked more than the others, except perhaps the ludicrous Dreda Say Mitchell. He also received more applause from the Tory Boy and country bumpkin element of the audience. As far as presenting a sound argument, that’s a different matter.

The most sensible piece i’ve read on the subject yet. go Delia!

Mmmmmmm! Chicken Kebabs.

So how long has it been since you CBA’d to vote?

It’s not that i couldn’t be bothered, I’ve moved house recently so had to update.

Having now made up my mind to stay, 100%, I am now fearful, like you, that the only ones who will be compelled to vote in numbers are those who are in favour of leaving.

You also touched on a point that has been really bugging me, since this whole referendum was announced: When it was confirmed who were going to lead the two campaigns, I was fearful this would come down to a vote of personality i.e. vote for the side led by the personality you hate the least. I have even heard people say they will vote to leave, purely because it will get rid of Cameron. That is no foundation on which to base such an important decision, especially as Cameron’s position is not up for question here.

That is a very real fear. People have no idea who to vote for because nobody is laying out the facts plain and simple. Let’s face it not even the European Council knows exactly is going to happen if Britain leaves the EU. The more Cameron tells us to remain the more people distrust him but in the absence of real facts the leave campaign are feeding us a pack of lies about immigration, border control, terrorism and people are starting to think “yeah, maybe we CAN be a strong, independent country like the good old days of the Empire”. But the fact is that there’s a real possibility that Scotland could vote to leave the UK and we will be a lot more isolated than we realise.

Brexit voters are loving it 🙁

It’s an appalling debate which again was foretold

I think we all knew what was coming from the Scottish one but you pat yourself on the back for your amazing foresight.

Lifer – Member

chewkw, have you ever noticed, everyone ignores you…
Yes, I have …
Several reasons:
1. They are unable to counter my views.
2. My interpretation is completely different from theirs.
3. They do not understand how to handle a different cultural response.
4. I am just one person so not worth the effort to reply to my views.
However, I am here to provide alternative views based on a far flung culture which judging from STW profile is truly lacking.
Also, I noticed that the ones that response to me are genuine people that truly know how to communicate.

The tragedy is you actually believe that. [/quote]

It is true. They cannot deal with my responses hence the have to deal with me differently. Unfortunately, as a minor bureaucrat I can see another coming.

The reason is simple if their views are better then mine I shall learn from them but most of them are just repeats. Not any better really and they are not even consistent with their own worldview.

@tmh I must have answered the EU budget contribution point a dozen times, one of use can search back in fhe thread and find my numerous comments – its not going to be me though. Even Osbourne’s Treasury prophanda will all their negative assumptions had a recession smaller than anything in recent history and didn’t show any positive oitcomes like increased trade with a mode vibrant Asia or the impact of being locked into a declining increasingly bankrupt Europe.

The consensus is we, and the world, will be harmed by leaving.

As I saw posted on another news site – Obama says we are so unimportant we’ll be at the back of the queue for a trade deal yet if we leave the EU the G7 says it will cause a global recession – odd combination that ? Did anyone watch the video I posted, really funny. The calculation of the cost to British households was a result of taking all the negative forecast results and multiplying them together. The agency responsible was called Vested 🙂

The a number of countries in world would be negatively impacted by a more vibrant Britain more able to compete with them in Asia and Latin America. A number of countries, a large number, will be damaged via a Greek default and collpase of the euro and somwould much rather we are F’ked big time by being embrioled in an EU bailout thus saving them major contributions intomthe IMF. Rather our money than theirs eh ?

Tactical voting. As I have said many times people seem to be voting Remain as they think that hurts the Tories. Thats incredibly naive and short termist. Uncontrolled immigration will continue to drive up hoise prices, deive down wages at the lower end, over crowd schools and hositpals. All of the affect the lower and lower middle income families the most and they we are told are the core Labour vote. I already own my property, immigrants from EU don’t negatively impact my wages and I had enough money to send my kids to private school and private medical. All the things I despise about the EU help me financially.

jambalaya – Member
… Uncontrolled immigration will continue to drive up hoise prices, deive down wages at the lower end, over crowd schools and hositpals.

Then build more houses, schools and hospitals.

Immigrants pay more in taxes than they cost, they’re self financing.

mmigrants pay more in taxes than they cost, they’re self financing

not true, you are referring to the net fiscal impact (ie. On gdp) not on net taxable cost/taxation – (in case you had missed it, we are running a deficit and thus most of us, including immigrants are a net tax burden) very different things, and in fact even that figure only works if you cherry pick a couple of years data and try and group *all* immigration as being of equal value, be they refugees, EU migrants, skilled and unskilled, regardless of family ties or historic connections.

I think we all knew what was coming from the Scottish one but you pat yourself on the back for your amazing foresight.

LOL 😆

speaking of varoufakis interesting thoughts in this, from last october but still interesting.

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=md6_WfF9Ky0[/video]

Not sure you have answered Jambas and neither has your team.

From the FRONT PAGE of Vote Leave tody

On 23 June, it’s safer to Vote Leave and take back control. We should stop sending £350 million per week to unelected politicians in Brussels, and spend our money on our priorities, like the NHS.

Blatant scaremongering BS – forget dodgy forecasts, this is a basic historical fact that is easy to check. Its appalling to still use this especially after yesterday but demonstrated the utter contempt for the truth that the OUT camp has.

seosamh77 – Member
speaking of varoufakis interesting thoughts in this, from last october but still interesting.

There your answer below.

teamhurtmore – Member
Blatant scaremongering BS

chewkw – Member

There your answer below.I’m not answering jamba with that video chewkw. Just posting it up public consumption, it’s an interesting view of the wider discussion, it’s worth a watch..

Then build more houses, schools and hospitals.

Immigrants pay more in taxes than they cost, they’re self financing.
Paid for by who ? The immigrants don’t come close to paying for that extra infrastructure with their taxes. I am not proposong this but if immigrants had to send their kids to private schools (or pay full state cost) and likewise with health care many would simply not come. The notion that they grow the UK economy incrementally by an amount to cober all these costs is fanciful.

@seaso I will watch that later. He’s now raking it in on the lecture circuit (wonder how much Labour are paying him) having sold a promise to the Greek people he couldn’t possibly keep.

“Raking it in”?

https://yanisvaroufakis.eu/2015/10/28/transparency-everywhere-my-fees-and-thre-troikas-latest-vilification-drive/

#jambafact

I already own my property, immigrants from EU don’t negatively impact my wages and I had enough money to send my kids to private school and private medical.

Yep, us too. But as I’ve said in the past I’m voting not for me but for my 3 (working) sons future – have you not consider the impact on your kids, or do they live in France like you?

Headshot to DrJ! 😆

Unfortunately nothing to damage there.

The notion that they grow the UK economy incrementally by an amount to cober all these costs is fanciful.

2 from 2 today in jambyland who would have thunk your normal accurate and sound posts would be so off
all bold mine [ and i have not emboldened the bits they did in the original for full disclosure. I am sure jamby will be swayed by the facts and retract immediately.

Researchers from UCL’s Centre for Research and Analysis of Migration (CReAM) – probably the leading experts in this field – have tried to tot up how much migrants paid in and took out of the UK economy between 1995 and 2011.

They look at tax paid by immigrants versus their uptake of benefits, tax credits, social housing, education, health and police services.

If we start counting in 1995, we find that migrants from the EEA (that’s EU countries plus Iceland, Liechtenstein and Norway) make a small net positive contribution. They pay in a few billion pounds more than they take out.

For immigrants from outside Europe and native-born Britons, it’s the opposite. Non-Europeans have a negative effect – worth in the region of £100bn. Natives are also net “takers”, to the tune of about £600bn.

The numbers change if we make different accounting assumptions (p49) but the pattern is the same.

The game-changer:

But if we start counting from 2001, the contribution made by migrants rises considerably.

The central estimates used in the paper suggest European immigrants make a net contribution of around £20bn. For immigrants from outside Europe there is a small net contribution of around £5bn and for natives the net cost was more than £616bn.

The big take-home messages are that: a) the big wave of immigration from central and Eastern Europe after 2004 was good for the UK economy and b) native-born Britons are a bigger drain on the state than immigrants.

One important point: the researchers say that all their figures are likely to under-estimate the long-term economic contribution made by immigrants, because it’s impossible to track what happens to their children.

British-born descendants of immigrants tend to do better at school and may well go on to make a higher net contribution to the economy than natives.

I await that day when Jambys says something that is not untrue

DrJ 9 months out of date. The guy is responsible along with the rest of the Syriza party for making the life of the avergae Greek far worse than it needed to be.

@br I am voting and campaigning for Leave as I believe it will be materially better for the country for my kids and grand kids. Not even close, materially better. As I posted before my middle daughter did an Erasmus year (nithing to domwithbthe EU, its a subscription arrangement) and my elder daughter studied in Spain on an MBA with many Latin Americans and that was open to anyone, visas easy to get. Also I live, work and pay taxes in the UK. Vote also of course,

Junky tact is I have been on the right side of pretty much EVERY discussion here in the 4.5 years I’ve been on the site. You’ll never deal with that as thats just your personality, online or otherwise, You are rapidly slipping into your old ways.

A Remain vote will absolutely support the upper middle class, it will be those further down who will suffer as they well recognise with the polling published by the Economist which shows that group to be significantly pro-Leave. Its why Corbyn has spent his career being anti-EU, at least Galloway has the courage to speak out. Trying to argue that the EU is protcting workers rights is laughable, well it would be if it wasn’t so deadly serious.

Intersting tonight senior Tory calling for a leadership challange post fhe result (either way) and an Autumn election. Osbourne can’t win, May perhaps (eurosceptic) but Boris would be fhe hot favourtie 😀
I think that’s genius as it guarantees Corbyn will be Labour leader and this a bigger Conservative majority.

@seaso thats 1hr 24 mins long, if you have something at 5 mins I can manage that.

Junky tact is I have been on the right side of pretty much EVERY discussion here in the 4.5 years I’ve been on the site.

A bit of a shock as most things you have posted have been bollocks. Or do you just mean right politically?

Trying to argue that the EU is protcting workers rights is laughable, well it would be if it wasn’t so deadly serious.

A few pages ago you were protesting that the EU was forcing/making/something France protect workers rights and the government was virtually powerless CAUSE OF THE EU to make it worse – so which is it?

In all honesty the biggest issue Leave has is that all of the facts keep turning out to be wrong.

Is Borris in or out tho ?

The Great EU Debate: Boris Johnson vs Boris Johnson

Is this withering personal attack on me meant to somehow gloss over the fact you were completely wrong about immigration? You cannot deal in facts , or you getting them wrong, hence you shot the messenger rather than dealt with the message- we all know what you said was factually inaccurate even you.

Fallacious arguing like this may make you think you are never wrong but that just highlights your issues, not mine.

tact is I have been on the right side of pretty much EVERY discussion here in the 4.5 years I’ve been on the site.

😯

DrJ 9 months out of date.

Feel free to provide an updated list of his speaking remuneration. Or are you just making stuff up again?

I’ll do some digging, speakers have all sorts of ways of getting paid – donations to research or foundations. Easy to organise it so you can say “my fee was zero / token”. Not making it up was told by someone who books speakers for events what it would cost to get him. I’ve been a client at many events where speakers are paid $100-200k for an evening.

Junky as I said look at the voting intentiions of the low paid and unemployed. Look where in te North UKIP are strong and threatening Labour. The nonsense posted on uncontrolled immigration being good is just that. The EU is the only place with that system, nowhere else thinks its a good idea. All the “analysis” of the benefits is simolistic ignoring the fact that the high paid and nhs jobs would be supported anyway with a visa system and ignoring the impact of 350,000 extra people per year on services. Assuming these are all single people thats a 1000 new properties required every week, even assuming an average of 3 people per household thats a huge driver of property price inflation.

@kimbers I’ll wager you he’s the next PM whichever way the Referendum goes, if the Tories force an autumn election its going to result in an even bigger majority as Labour are in dissarray. Playing the man again also I see, Boris is fabulously popular with Tory voters and middle ground too, winning London mayor in such a Labour stronghold shows this quite clearly. As for changing stance there is a very long list starting with Corbyn

Voting in the Referendum as you believe that it will hurt the Tories or Boris is madness. An early election will be great for both of them, Labour is just not ready to fight an election and be successful.

Look where in te North UKIP are strong and threatening Labour. The nonsense posted on uncontrolled immigration being good is just that. The EU is the only place with that system, nowhere else thinks its a good idea.

Take for example veg picking, your classic low paid manual job that at present is being propped up by labour from the EU – why? Because a load of people really don’t want to do it, nothing to do with the pay rate it’s just bloody hard work.

I guess the queue for people to work as cleaners etc. isn’t bulging with UK applicants too?

I’ll do some digging, speakers have all sorts of ways of getting paid – donations to research or foundations. Easy to organise it so you can say “my fee was zero / token”.

So, to summarise, you made your accusation about Varoufakis “raking it in” on the basis of absolutely no evidence whatsoever. Thanks for clarifying that.