SNP’s interests are best served by Scotland being outside the UK

I don’t think that’s the case. A post-independence SNP will struggle to make it to a second term of government (I’ll assume they’d form the first) as the various factions will struggle to hold together without the common goal of independence. I think the Tories might do quite well, Greens would gain. Labour? Who knows. It’s possible that they’ll have so diminished as a political force by then.

As far as Scotland is concerned, Westminster is effectively an undemocratic supranational power with apparently little interest in the wants and needs of the Scottish people.

odd that they voted in the way they did then?

But just for fun, lets assume that you are correct. Why would they now seek to swap high levels of devolved power for a transfer of economic (and political?) sovereignty to Frankfurt Brussels?

Even an eight year old can see that that is “pish”

odd that they voted in the way they did then?

Not really. I suspect that for all it’s faults they feel that an outward-looking progressive EU better matches their political views than an inward-looking Westminster riven with little englanders harking back to the days of empire.

I’ll grant you that economically it probably doesn’t make too much sense, but as we’ve already firmly established that economics play second fiddle in these arguments, I can’t see much difference.

And in any case, any eight year old can tell you that were Scotland independent of the UK but an EU member it would have more control over its affairs than it has currently. So I’m not quite sure what point you were trying to make unless it was to further highlight your cognitive dissonance on this thread.

“pish” indeed

(dont forget the Welsh and N Irish BTW)

But bravo on bringing in some of Alex’s rhetoric from last night. He was on a roll wasnt he – down the wrong slope, but on a roll nonetheless.

I see you’re only resorting to dismissing an argument as “pish” when it’s an argument you’ve comprehensively lost. Pretty poor form imo

an inward-looking Westminster riven with little englanders harking back to the days of empire.

Strange, I thought that they were leading us into becoming the 51st State of the USA?

Why would they now seek to swap high levels of devolved power for a transfer of economic (and political?) sovereignty to Frankfurt Brussels?
Even an eight year old can see that that is “pish”

why did you say it then?

we all know the high regard you have for scotland but you would need to be spectacularly inept to think an independent scotland within the EU has not got more freedom than a devolved parliament – the words alone tell you which has the greatest autonomy.

SNP interests do not equal interest of Scottish people – simple!

aye what they need is the insight of another english tory telling them that – if only you could convince the scottish electorate of this.

All this is is yet another example of THM going i hate the SNP and I know what is best for the scottish people- with the usual childish name calling.

We get it you hate the SNP- FWIW it seems pretty clear that a party that campaigned on staying in the EU representing a country that voted to remain should vote to remain/not vote for A 50 – its just democratic. You can disagree with the electorate but its particularly daft to attack them for doing what they said they would and what their electorate want.

We get it you hate the SNP no matter what they do and say we have all worked this out so stop using silly arguments to further highlight how your hatred has overcome your intellect.

THM I think the die has been cast for an indie scotland now, unless a hard brexit can be avoided, which i seriously doubt.

as you are so fond of pointing out its time to make the best of a bad situation, just as with Brexshit

they may as well just get on with indyref2 so we can all get to work trying to make things better

get a room. 😀

SNP’s interests are best served by Scotland being outside the UK

how do you figure that!?
SNP has no reason to exist after independence from UK is achieved.
bit like, err, UKIP frinstance.

Boot. Other foot. Enjoy.

And in any case, any eight year old can tell you that were Scotland independent of the UK but an EU member it would have more control over its affairs than it has currently.

😀 No really – your (mis)understanding of what is happening in the EZ knows no bounds. Ditto devolved power. But, fair enough, you did say that you cant see much difference. Guilt admitted.

So I’m not quite sure what point you were trying to make unless it was to further highlight your cognitive dissonance on this thread.

Those are very big words. Send a tweet to alex, he could find a use for them.

It is ‘pish” clearly but I look forward to it being spun – just stay upwind would be my advice

I know I’ve said this before and its anecdotal, but many of my anti-independence associates/family/friends are now firmly in favour of independence, if it gets offered again.

And also- trying to apply the “but it makes sense for Scotland to stay, cos: facts!” argument falls spectacularly on its face post-Brexit, which shows that people aren’t interested in facts any more- we’ve debated that to death on this thread, and I hold that to be the new truth.

So, anything can happen.

“Queen Nicola” for instance?

Cody, once the dust has settled, they will see sense

The UK has all the criteria for a single currency area
It has all of the elements in place – it works
Surpluses are recycled across the UK and there is political accountability
Regions have growing levels of devolved power
The UK will continue to have access to the single market post Brexshit

…but lets throw that away in a fit of pique??? A few hot-heads aside, Scots are too canny to fall for that.

“And also- trying to apply the “but it makes sense for Scotland to stay, cos: facts!” argument falls spectacularly on its face post-Brexit,”

…and this is why there will never be another Referendum unless the establishment don’t GAF which way it goes.

And in any case, any eight year old can tell you that were Scotland independent of the UK but an EU member it would have more control over its affairs than it has currently.

No one can seriously argue against this, I wouldn’t, and I desperately want Scotland to stay in the UK.

What is even more worrying, is how Westminster’s increased powers in a few years time (it is they who are getting “their country back” after all), will further shift that equation.

Depressingly for the Scots though, they do not have the option of being outside the UK, but inside the EU.

No really – your (mis)understanding of what is happening in the EZ knows no bounds

have you considered explaining why this is true rather than just dismissing it?

An INDEPENDENT nation MUST have more power than a DEVOLVED nation
Its not even debatable and if it is it is with an intellectual point rather than your usual scorn for those not as bright as you – which is ironic given how wrong you are being

The UK will continue to have access to the single market post Brexshit

Access but it seems quite unlikely we will be a part of it

No one can seriously argue against this

I have never accused THM of being serious on here 😉

At least you are not alone zokes – take comfort in that!

half of all people in work pay no tax

You’re looking at income tax.

Now compare NI + income tax with Impôts sur le revenue + CSG/RDS + charges socilaes, in other words all direct taxes on earned income.

And don’t forget that there has been a transfer for the tax burden to the regions so people will be paying:

Taxe foncière
Taxe d’habitation
Taxe foncière professionelle

Claming people in one of most taxed countries on the planet pay les tax in incorrect. The tax burden is more equitably spread, and that is a good thing but not seen as such by those rich banker types like you, Jamba. But then you pay tax in the UK rather than France (if you pay any at all being a banker type). 😉

It’s a system, it’s fairer, but the big corporations don’t like it so abuse EU treaties to avoid tax in France by having offices in London, Luxembourg or Dublin. That is one abuse of the EU I’d like to see stopped. They’re working on it apparently.

WHy not just engage rather than do this ? not only is he not alone no one is agreeing with you[ because what you said is clearly false] and you are not even trying to persuade anyone just be shitty/mocking to anyone who disagrees with you.

Its a very strange MO you have on here THM as all you want to do is be scornful and not actually bother to present an argument.

THM, I hoped I’d get a more sensible debate from you. Stop being a sad little child and try to grow up a little, you’ll find it beneficial in the long run I’m sure.

But just as a hint: Scotland is currently a member of the UK, which is also (for now) a member of the EU. Scotland has some devolved powers from Westminster, but a lot are not. Westminster has some powers subjugated by Brussels, but a lot are not. If the UK leaves the EU, and Scotland leaves the UK but joins the EU it will gain far more powers from no longer being bound to Westminster than it would loose from being a member of the EU, which it currently is via the UK anyway.

Your argument makes no sense. You know that, but can’t deal with it as being a little Tory you hate the SNP more than you hate arguments that make no sense, ergo cognitive dissonance. I suggest you try to spend a little longer formulating your arguments and you might actually come up with a vaguely logical position.

FWIW I try to avoid anything either fish-related politician says as I’m not a particularly big fan of either of them myself.

And just a point on currency. Right now, Scotland uses the GBP, a currency that it has no control over, and one that has lost >20% of its value in a few months (and indeed 10% in just one day at one point). If a condition of a future independent Scotland joining the EU was that it had to adopt the Euro, it would still be using a currency it has no control over. You could probably make some fairly convincing arguments about the Euro as a viable currency, but a GBP in a non-EU UK that’s bled a huge chunk of its income and wealth in the process of leaving the EU doesn’t sound too rosy either.

You’re looking at income tax.

I made that point. But there’s no point. It’s Jamba, just skip over his misdirections and create your own. It’s 2017.

I presumed he meant Greece not France by the way…

Scotland is currently a member of the UK

ahem:

first day of May next ensuing the date hereof and forever after

😀

You see, not something that you can leave, unlike the EU with its pesky Article 50

but a GBP in a non-EU UK that’s bled a huge chunk of its income and wealth in the process of leaving the EU doesn’t sound too rosy either.

Even less rosy without Scotland.

A smaller UK, without Scotland, and outside the EU, and not operating in the Single Market, seemed an unimaginable nightmare only a few years ago… I wouldn’t bet my home on it now…

Thanks for your generous advice zokes – it will be treated with the appropriate level of respect

But just as a hint: Scotland is currently a member of the UK, which is also (for now) a member of the EU. Scotland has some devolved powers from Westminster, but a lot are not. Westminster has some powers subjugated by Brussels, but a lot are not. If the UK leaves the EU, and Scotland leaves the UK but joins the EU it will gain far more powers from no longer being bound to Westminster than it would loose from being a member of the EU, which it currently is via the UK anyway.

To use your quote – this is what makes no sense. You clearly do not understand how the UK/EZ and common currencies work? Until you do, there is no sensible debate to be had.

But here’s a hint – think about how surpluses are recycled within the UK but not within the EZ. Ask yourself why this is the case and what are the implications (the answers are in the last few pages). Then “spend a little longer formulating your arguments and you might (?) actually come up with a vaguely logical position”.

You are correct – I do dislike the lies that the SNP tell, their track record and they way they deliberately confuse their own self-interests with the interests (sic) of the Scottish people. They are snake-oil salesmen with a poor reord of delivery. They use all the smokes and mirrors possible to confuse reality and rhetoric #SDBMB

and not operating in the Single Market,

Still having problems with this?

Nope.

In what sense is this a debate THM its just you trying to be clever saying **** all and pretending to be the brightest person in the room

You clearly do not understand how the UK/EZ and common currencies work? Until you do, there is no sensible debate to be had.

Look in the mirror THM. I fail to find any problem with Zokes’ appreciation of the situation.

If you and Jamba knew anything at all about where Greek assets have gone over the last ten years you’d be talking about the problems caused by that financial rogue state Switzerland, not the Euro.

And in any case, any eight year old can tell you that were Scotland independent of the UK but an EU member it would have more control over its affairs than it has currently

Any eight year old can probably tell you that if Dingwall left the UK and became an independent city-state then it would have a lot more control over its affairs than it does within the UK, or within an independent Scotland.

That doesn’t make Independence For Dingwall a good idea.

True but that is not what he said he said independence led to sending of powers to elsewhere and , as you note, that is not true as something independent has more freedom than something devolved

Why would they now seek to swap high levels of devolved power for a transfer of economic (and political?) sovereignty to Frankfurt Brussels?

the only way to think otherwise is to not understand the words meanings or to hate the SNP so much you will post BS whilst saying they are snake oil salesmen who spread BS …Oh the irony

You are correct THM on what the SNP do to some degree[ what politicians dont?] what I have never understood is why you then do the same
Still they say the people we hate the most are the ones most like us…is that the reason?

For anyone thats interested, here’s an excellent article on how big data, precise analytics, and spot-on targeting of FB articles swung Brexit and Trump:

https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/how-our-likes-helped-trump-win

Have we not done that to death Codybrennan?
Check out the articles showing that, while there is some truth in it, that Daz Magazin article is overblown.

[ edit – I’ve dug a short one up to save us time : http://boingboing.net/2017/02/01/trumps-big-data-secret-sau.html ]

I fail to find any problem with Zokes’ appreciation of the situation.

Obviously. But two wrongs dont make a right.

If you and Jamba knew anything at all about where Greek assets have gone over the last ten years you’d be talking about the problems caused by that financial rogue state Switzerland, not the Euro.

FWIW, Jambas and I disagree on most aspects relating to Greece, other than the fact that Greek debt is unsustainable – a point I highlighted from the IMF report earlier.

Having spend a large part of the 90s/early naughties working closely with Greek banks, I am comfortable with my awareness of what has gone on – thank you.

If YOU fail to understand that the role of the € in the Greek crisis, then you are admitting all we need to know. But you are partially correct in pointing out the variety of factors involved.

ah dismissing again without evidence and an appeal to your own authority*

If this wont convince folk then what will ?

Still this SNP people eh god they are disingenuous aren’t they 😉

Edukator

here are two good reads

Amazon try to flog Mason’s book with them, but it is a very pale immitatian. In contrast Varoufakis is a much better argument.

codybrennan – Member
I know I’ve said this before and its anecdotal, but many of my anti-independence associates/family/friends are now firmly in favour of independence, if it gets offered again.

This^^^, anecodtally…. I have 4 cousins in Scotland, going by their FB
2 were pro indy, 2 I have no idea, ever since brexit all 4 have become ever more vocally pro indy, even the one who plays video games for a living and smokes a lot of weed has suddenly become political.

Post the Brexit vote May and the actions of the Brexiters (and corbyn) have succeeded in alienating them superbly

and my favourite Varoufakis quote

Encouraging free trade by removing tariffs and quotas may be combined profitably with attempts to fix exchange rates in order to make long-term prices more predictable for buyers and sellers, but to do this and at the same time allow for the free movement of money across borders is to ask for serious trouble. The reason for this is that when money is free to travel, during the good times it follows higher interest rates. Deficit countries offer higher rates and, given a fixed exchange rate, are very attractive for the excess money of surplus states. But this causes a build-up of debt in the deficit regions that goes bad at the first sign of an economic downturn. For this reason, one of the few things economists tend to agree on is that the freedom of goods and money to travel unimpeded cannot be combined with fixed exchange rates, unless a political surplus recycling mechanism is also part of the deal.

Neither the Germans nor Jambas agree with this – they put the blame fairly and squarely on the shoulders of the poor Greeks.

You may recall the misguided response of the Scottish Nats when Carney was making essentially the same point. But then again, they didn’t understand currencies either.

And some homework – what is required for a political surplus mechanism and then try to reconcile this with the BS currently coming from the SNP

i think it has just further highlighted to the Scots how being in the UK means doing what england wants not what Scotland wants an that being in the UK union may not be better than being in the EU union.
This is a big big issue to be overruled/ignored on and will clearly add to the wish to be independent from some waverers and just fuel the independent lot.

I expect a vote at some point that the rUK does not authorise and may not recognise – unless they win it.

Clearly the SNP will use any opportunity to try and gain independence – I am not sure this is a reason to despise them. I rather suspect your view on whether this is savvy or opportunistic rather depends on what you think of independence

In the eyes of Jamba and his cohorts, my country of Scotland is not even a country at all, merely a region, therefore we have no sway…