Will it get through Commons/Lords?

No one can answer the simple question of what happens if either vote it down in the end

Some muppet on Newsnight talking about grieving today!!!

A very good speech PM May.

Much better than many of the past PMs’.

EU bureaucrats know they need to negotiate with UK so whatever opinions they have are just opinions, whether the individual EU states support the decision of the EU bureaucrats is to be seen. I think EU system is breaking up because they are treating some of the EU states unfairly and they don’t agree with each others other than bullying the smaller states.

Well I’m still **** gutted about losing my freedom of movement, and feel even worse about my kids never having it.

That’s my remorse – the long term effect on my daughters future well-being.

Yes, but we’re going to make damn sure that the Govt gets as little of our money as possible

Nice idea, but short of moving abroad, how do the middle classes, who have their tax deducted by their employer, actually do that?

Edit: live on TV, Mefty. Being rich and powerful are the only requirements for a Davos invite (journos apart)
I’m not complaining about the fact she has set out what she wants. I’m complaining that’s it’s unrealistic, and delivered in a frankly insulting manner.

You need to be quicker with your edits, so are you rich and powerful or are you a journo? Or were you not in Davos? Theresa May certainly wasn’t – not her thing I imagine – the fact there was a picture of Pitt the Elder in the background should have been a clue. Tusk has welcomed it as more realistic, as has Merkel for its clarity, maybe you dont have a thick enough skin for politics, I thought it was polite. Also if you thought it was insulting, I would advise you not to venture to the Netherlands, they are frightfully blunt there.

THM – told you we’d disagree at some point. 😉
But deep in your heart you know I’m right. May really is useless.

I am not a fan igm but today frankly she went up in my estimations as painful as it is to say that

She was clear and sensible in what she said, if not in the rationale behind in. This is flawed but tant pis I am in the minority there

I think we need to forward the link that I shared with you a couple of days ago as so many simply fail to get the basics !’

Sorry that our agreeement was so short. 😉

My wife’s family in America mostly aren’t professionals except one, and she’s an accountant so hardly an in demand skill. They are essentially stuck in America, they (along with most of the country) can’t work anywhere else.

We’re going to be like that.

No we are not – unless we chose to be – why the melodrama!

I am not a fan igm but today frankly she went up in my estimations as painful as it is to say that

She is clearly supremely confident, she doesn’t seem to care about control of “media narrative”, her attitude seems to be government is a serious business, 24 hour news isn’t, so I’m buggered if I am going to pander to you – quite a departure, one I didn’t think would work but I now think it does.

No we are not – unless we chose to be – why the melodrama!

It’s molgrips – it’s his middle name.

Actually I think she is anything but confident. Her eyes and body language suggest to me someone who is a uncomfortable in the spotlight – she is a deputy not a leader IMO and her demeanour gives this away

Big yes i agree that “this is serous, 24 hour gossip isn’t” was refreshing and timely particular in contrast to the ragbag that followed.

Edukator how on earth is it unreasonable ? We have a trade deficit with EU, no tariffs favours the EU. May said Brits like buying EU products and want to continue as we in the UK want to keep selling ours. A sensible deal is win-win. The EU had a chance to agree meaningful reforms and it declined, they took a punt on Remain and lost out.

The debate in the EU hasn’t really begun on how they are going to adjust to €10bn less pa budget wise, cuts or increased contributions ? A mix of both.

Name one, I’m failing.

Spain (monkey chants and throwing bananas at black England footballers, ever looked at a top Spanish football team and compared the number of black players with say a UK, German or French side ?)
Poland
Hungary
Slovakia (zero Muslim refugees here as we have no Mosques and they won’t feel at home)

@chris maxing out the Credit Card is rather ironic metaphor in light of the state of Southern European Government’s finances

@molgrips the US is a country of 350m people and far richer than large chunks of Europe, job prospects for your relatives are far better there and US growth is far stronger.

The EU reaction (as reported) was interesting as for me May just confirmed what the Government has been saying all along and is consistent with her Party Conference speech. What will really sink in is the no budget confribution point above and the fact that the UK does[/quote] not value THE single market as highly as the EU seems to. On French news May’s speech was 6 minutes in after pieces on the cold weather, good snow in ski resorts and Valls getting slapped, election … it was covered a but not a high priority.

EDIT: German Green Party MPs seem to be a bit more firey than our own warm and cuddly pacificst vegan types 🙂

“May: Go **** yourself EU but please don’t let us down. Whine whine,” tweeted Jan Philipp Albrecht, Green Party MEP for northern Germany.

“Many of the 52 per cent of Brits voting leave clearly believed that they would stay in a common European market. They’re f**ked together with the 48 per cent,” he added.

Davos. There are plenty of hangers on, for every CEO there is his/her entourage. For every CEO there are 100 chancer sales people hanging around outside the official events. Then you have all the politicians. Well except Merkel, suddenly politicians seem keen to avoid being seen at such Cathedrals of the Global Establishment 🙂

Just wonderin’

Why is she running about like Rod Stewart or the durty one oot the Bay City Rollers?

“May: Go **** yourself EU but please don’t let us down. Whine whine,” tweeted Jan Philipp Albrecht, Green Party MEP for northern Germany.

Ah, European politicians talking tough, that’s worked well in the past, hasnt it?

‘In three weeks England will have her neck wrung like a chicken.’

this is fun.

nobody knows whats happening.

the brexit campaign big steaming pile of lies, the government response -they have no idea what to do.

this is because the vote to leave was purely and simply on immigration.

so, having been caught out as big old racists, the argument is now ‘we’re less racist than other countries’

so, having been caught out as big old racists, the argument is now ‘we’re less racist than other countries’

What race are European people then?

Zzzzzzzzz

Actually I think she is anything but confident. Her eyes and body language suggest to me someone who is a uncomfortable in the spotlight – she is a deputy not a leader IMO and her demeanour gives this away

Yes. Her speechwriters have done well, and she has spent a lot of time in front of a mirror rehearsing (probably with a picture of Thatcher with her eyes scratched out taped to it). But that’s about it.

Maybe she’ll surprise me once the gloves are off and she has to do something other than read out wish lists, but I’m not sure.

What race are European people then?

You pop your definition of race and everyone else can go a find a definition that is different.

and she has spent a lot of time in front of a mirror rehearsing

That is really only of use if you have a reflection….

, having been caught out as big old racists, the argument is now ‘we’re less racist than other countries’

Irrational fear of EU immigration is xenophobia not racism.

so, having been caught out as big old racists, the argument is now ‘we’re less racist than other countries’

Nope, pointing out that people in the UK are often stunningly ignorant of other countries. They go to one for a week in the sun or a schmoke and a pancake and think that they a paradise without racism, not understanding just how good race relations in the UK are compared to some of them.

he brexit campaign big steaming pile of lies

There are none so blind as those that choose not to see. Obviously you are passionate about one side of the decision that was fixed last year. There were lies told by the leave campaign, not least the very silly figure on the bus – the real figure was bad enough, it did not need to be massaged.

But if, in your passion you chose not to see that the remain case was a basket of lies, then who can help you ? Be passionate about your case, but please, have the sense to see that both sides lied, the Empire side more so than the the rebel alliance.

Or, it could just be that they were spectacularly unlucky at creating economic forecasts, forgot to have an emergency budget, forgot to put us at the back of the line, and so on, and so on, and so on.

Shackleton – to some its xenophobia but for many the motivation is clearly racist. The mainstream leavers might be xenophobic but there is a strong undercurrent of racism

I find the allegations of racism in the netherlands being worse than here laughable. I have family in the netherlands and while there is some racism there and they even have their own farage figure the racism and xenophobia in the netherlands is nothing like as prevalent as it is in the UK

just how good race relations in the UK are compared to some of them

Go on then, name and shame.

Jamby came up with Spain on the basis of Spanish football fans. A bit rich given the behaviour of England fans abroad and at home.

she doesn’t seem to care about control of “media narrative

But her speech seems directly aimed at a particular set of people and the media that they consume. Like any modern politician I think she’s probably obsessed by the media narrative to a worrying degree.

Be passionate about your case, but please, have the sense to see that both sides lied

not one single thing has been confirmed, apart from the granite cornerstone of ‘no more immigration’.

everything, everything else can be smashed against it.

if you voted leave, how do you feel that absolutely nothing apart from that is being delivered?

I find the allegations of racism in the netherlands being worse than here laughable. I have family in the netherlands and while there is some racism there and they even have their own farage figure the racism and xenophobia in the netherlands is nothing like as prevalent as it is in the UK

Great anecdote, dude.

to some its xenophobia but for many the motivation is clearly racist. The mainstream leavers might be xenophobic but there is a strong undercurrent of racism

For the record I am in favour of FOM.

None of the leavers I have spoken to have said anything overtly racist but they have been strong xenophobes. The same goes for national commentary in the press. I don’t even think Farage is a committed racist but is happy to use latent racist sympathies to stir up xenophobia for his own ends.

Yes, some leavers are racists, but I have family members who voted remain, live in Leicester and have no problem with FOM but constantly talk about “them” (large 2nd or 3rd generation immigrant asian community) and their strange habits that aren’t right. So anecdotally they crop up on both sides of the divide. And bear in mind that virtually all news reporting on the subject is anecdotal too.

Basically what I’m trying to say is that tarring leavers as racist because a small minority are undermines your own argument because it is patently untrue and gets in the way of constructive dialogue. Saying that much of the popular leave vote was driven by xenophobia probably isn’t far from the mark and is what needs to be worked on to make a better society.

Be passionate about your case, but please, have the sense to see that both sides lied

Yep plenty of good solid stuff in the remain camp like certainty over access to the EEA, certainty about movement etc.
The leave response was along the lines that nothing is set in stone and the EU could change all that in 10 mins if they felt like it.
Yep it’s like debating a toddler

😀 @Shackleton

I was going to complement her hairdresser on making her look less like Gary Oldman in Dracula, but that would be a bit shallow.

Remember Cantona?

Matthew Simmons had rushed down eleven rows of the stand to hurl abuse at the departing genius. He memorably informed The Sun his exact words were: ‘Off you go Cantona – it’s an early bath for you!’ More reliable witnesses have suggested it was closer to: ‘F*** off, you motherf***ing French *******.’

Now try and find any hint of the racist insult (definition time again Ninfan) in the Telegraph article on the incident.

The debate in the EU hasn’t really begun on how they are going to adjust to €10bn less pa budget wise, cuts or increased contributions

I think that our borrowing +£50bn pa is a far bigger problem.

Great anecdote, dude.

Shite dismissal, dude.

I find the allegations of racism in the netherlands being worse than here laughable. I have family in the netherlands and while there is some racism there and they even have their own farage figure the racism and xenophobia in the netherlands is nothing like as prevalent as it is in the UK

Laugh if you wish but unfortunately it is true. Not just the followers of Gert Wilders, Zwaart Piet, burka bans, complaints about people talking foreign in public, posters on domestic violence featuring exclusively dark skinned people – hell, I even felt unwelcome myself for the first time in my life I felt discriminated against on the grounds of my race. Very strange feeling.

Point of order regarding Zwarte (black) Piet – 90% do NOT resist his changing from the blackface, that’s a made up figure Jambs.

There are some in NL that are saying they refuse to let his appearance be changed by outsiders, that it’s Dutch tradition etc etc but they’re mostly supporters of Geert Wilders (20% ish, but that’s today’s politics)

The actual intention of ZP is unclear but the backstory is not that they are slaves but that they are there to give gifts to the children along side Saint Nicholaas. Yes the iconography is very outdated, but that is slowly changing.

It’s certainly not racist in intention, it just looks odd. He’s actually generally said to be black from having come down the chimney, though it’s taking a long time to change the standard outfit.

Also, saying other countries are more racist than the UK doesn’t make it any more acceptable, it’s just a race to the bottom.

granite cornerstone of ‘no more immigration’

No.

No UNLIMITED immigration.

That IS NOT THE SAME as “no migration” and I don’t know of anyone who is suggesting that there should be no immigration – if you have a source, I would love to see it.

Immigration has been good for the country, but do you really think that it could go on at the rate that it has ? Would you really be happy if in 5 years they concrete over your favourite trails to build the housing that is needed because we are forbidden to control the numbers of people that come to the UK ?