“It’s nothing to do with immigrants”
“It’s all to do with immigrants”

loop and fade out…

Ernie – almost but not quite. Perhaps you missed a bit.

A lot of them were / are racists Ernie. Some weren’t I agree.

I think more that if almost everyone voting for something is racist, then think long and hard before you join them.
And for the record I haven’t called you a racist – I don’t know you and your postings on here don’t really suggest it to me.
However fellow travellers can get tarred with the same brush, so people might start to make the wrong assumptions about the odd non-racist Brexy.

And how is that working out for you politically IGM?

Seems to me that all the ‘progressive political left’ (for want of a better phrase) have achieved in calling out the racists and their fellow travellers is strengthening people’s resolve not to be bulled, leading to the loss of the Brexit vote and catapulting Trump into power

Cheers aye!

ernie_lynch – Member
I know you think otherwise hebdencyclist but that research by Lord Ashcroft completely undermines the point that you are trying to make, ie, that’s it OK to call those who were in favour of leaving ignorant racists.

It’s late, I had a big day on the bike today and I’m pretty tired so may not be thinking clearly however looking at that table on the previous page, don’t the two clear categories around immigration show pretty conclusively that those that thought immigration and multiculturalism were bad overwhelming voted leave???

Or am i completely misreading it?

80% of those who didn’t like immigration or multiculturalism voted leave???

Completely flipped about for the remaining side

igm – Member
Ernie – almost but not quite. Perhaps you missed a bit.

A lot of them were / are racists Ernie. Some weren’t I agree.

I think more that if almost everyone voting for something is racist, then think long and hard before you join them.
And for the record I haven’t called you a racist – I don’t know you and your postings on here don’t really suggest it to me.
However fellow travellers can get tarred with the same brush, so people might start to make the wrong assumptions about the odd non-racist Brexy.
Which is one reason why I’ve assiduously avoided contributing to this thread. Because I support leaving, but to admit to it is more than likely have a narrow-minded clot like you clearly are start ranting at me as a racist, despite knowing nothing whatsoever about me.

I think more that if almost everyone some people voting for something is racist

That’s far closer to the reality.

I think the simple conclusion we came to was not all voting out were racist, but a very high percentage of the racists voted out.
Then there are those who start their points with “I’m not racist but…”

“almost everyone” is clearly a bit strong, but do you think they weren’t the majority, or even the vast majority? I’m including here people who might claim not to be racist, but have views which effectively are.

Welcome to the thread BTW – it is useful to have opinions from the other side, and I’m certainly not going to fling insults at you. Why did you vote Leave?

I believe a lot of voters were duped by racist propaganda without realising

So much rhetoric about “foreigners” making decisions for Britain. Pile on top the whole “unelected” propaganda and it was a perfect storm. So even if people could say they weren’t against those of a different colour, there was a pretty clear anti foreigner sentiment that many probably didn’t realise they were buying into.

Personally I want the best people making decisions regardless of their nationality.

And looking at the incompetent fools that are leading us at the moment, I’d take anything over them at the moment.

Why we must leave the customs union (Swiss aren’t members btw)

Why we must leave the Customs Union

Why should anyone listen to what you have to say if you are lying to their faces

Says the man who voted for Farage and his £350million bus. 😉

However dismissing them as ignorant racists made them far less likely to listen to people like you.

They were never going to listen to any moderate, liberal voice. They (you) listened to populist dog-whistles about immigration and “taking back control” or something.

Anyway I asked you a question on the other thread. You said you voted Leave because you wanted sovereignty. I asked you what this meant, why you felt you did not have sovereignty before, and how the UK will be better now we have (you perceive) our sovereignty back, and whether those perceived benefits are worth any price.

Will you answer?

jambalaya – Member
Why we must leave the customs union (Swiss aren’t members btw)

Why we must leave the Customs Union

Rounding slightly for ease, but 50% of our imports and exports are from or to the EU

How will we have a better deal with the EU outside of it?

What are we going to bring to the table that will force a better deal with EU countries than the one we already have?

Maybe I’m being blinkered by i simply cannot see how we benefit here. The EU will screw us out of pettiness and to send a message to other member states

If we are then forced to go outside the EU for trade deals, we are on the backfoot as we have nowhere else to go and that puts others in a very, very strong negotiating position

jambalaya – Member
Why we must leave the customs union (Swiss aren’t members btw)

Puts some valid points forward but for the colcusion I reach from reading the arguments is that we would be better off all in the EU and that in order to try some radical ideas out we need to be out of it all and accept being worse off then trying things to make the UK better off.
If you plans add say 10bn to the economy but to implement the plans you have to remove 15bn from it you are still 5bn worse off.

Maybe I’m being blinkered by i simply cannot see how we benefit here. The EU will screw us out of pettiness and to send a message to other member states

The EU will negotiate the best for the EU, it’s what they should be doing and I can hold no bitterness or anger towards that. The UK wants a deal that is massivly sided towards the UK not the EU, it’s a valid aim but not different to the EU wanting the same. They also hold the time card, the size card and the impact card (estimates was a cost to the UK economy of 5% but the EU 1% as which they would find easier to absorb)

The EU will negotiate the best for the EU, it’s what they should be doing and I can hold no bitterness or anger towards that.

100%

And how is that working out for you politically IGM?

Is IGM running for office?

So much rhetoric about “foreigners” making decisions for Britain.

Yes. Brussels is closer to Dover than Paris is to Marseilles, or LA is to Washington DC. So what’s the difference? It’s cos they’re FOREIGN.

Nationlism. End of.

Calling people racists just made Leavers feel they where right as Remainers had lost the plot and where simply hurling insults.

I’m not calling leavers racists. I’m calling them nationalistic and ignorant. Maybe also xenophobic.

Does that help?

Remain had a bad campaign, agreed. Not all leavers are racist, also agreed. However it’s still a bloody stupid idea, and hugely diminishes the UK culturually.

So people voted to leave and it has nothing to do with immigration or the message written on the side of a bus.
Why exactly did they vote to leave then?

It has all to do with immigration.

But racism, xenophobia and nationalism are all different things. Related, yes, but different.

Here you go ZK, from a few days ago

teamhurtmore – Member 
Why dId we vote to leave??? Didnt you read the bus script?

1. £350m
2. Keep the nasties out
3. Give the folk in immigration ‘owt to do
4. ditto the legislature – those folk in wigs, robes and ermine
5. Trade deal with the 12% of the world we don’t have deals with now, while screwing the 88% that we do have

Source: #fakecontolwebsite

Simples. Why didn’t anyone think of this before?

POSTED 4 DAYS AGO #

It has all to do with immigration.

For a lot of them it was to do with the left deliberatley using immigration as a political weapon to “rub their noses in diversity”* and promote multiculturalism, whilst successfully gerrymandering the Labour vote.

*Andrew Neather, former Labour advisor

and promote multiculturalism

And people are against multiculturalism…?

And people are against multiculturalism…?

Trevor Philips, former chair of the commision for racial equality, has said for years that it was a ‘racket’ and warned that it promotes segregation and difference rather than harmony and integration

What’s the alternative? Monoculturlism? Forced integration?

Why we must leave the customs union (Swiss aren’t members btw)

http://brexitcentral.com/must-leave-customs-union/

R4 Today this morning – the Swiss deal with the EU is that jobs have to be offered to Swiss citizens first apparently and on that basis they have access to the SM.

I’d be pretty certain that if you went back to a position of free movement of labour (rather than of persons generally) had something similar to Norway where you have to find a job within six months this could be presented as a huge victory by the [/s]National SocialistsBrexiteeers / Enola May (control blah blah blah) end of story.

And people are against multiculturalism…?

Many, are, and they voted Leave.
See the survey Hebdencyclist posted on the previous page.

“It’s nothing to do with immigrants”
“It’s all to do with immigrants”
loop and fade out…

There will be no fade, will there.…

end of story

You are a dreamer.
The reality is already pretty close to what you describe.
You are approaching this in a rational way,
Nothing I’ve read recently suggests that those wanting out would respond well to that.

As I got a bus through chinatown in san francisco recently, it struck me that peoples’ views (including my own) on segregation and multiculturalism are very inconsistent and emotional rather than logical.

Why oh why do we live in a world where the Mash comes across as a serious newspaper

BREXIT voters are still expecting clarity from a gang of absolute shysters you couldn’t trust to do **** anything, it has emerged.

Many Brexiters say that although they are still happy they voted to Leave, they now want the untrustworthy gang of lying bastards behind the referendum to ‘give them some clarity on it’.

Donna Sheridan said: “I just want to know exactly what it is I’ve voted for. Is that too much to ask for from a gang of totally self-serving careerist politicians?

“I mean, there’s no way Neil Hamilton would get behind something he didn’t fully understand.”

Martin Bishop said: “Just because these people would have told us measles was caused by ghosts if it served their personal agenda, doesn’t mean they don’t have a detailed plan for the most complex economic shift in recent political history.

“Look at Boris. That’s the face of a man who knows.”

Brexiters still expecting ‘clarity’ from absolute shyster

On the racist thing, it all went wrong when Gordon Brown apologised to that racist woman for calling her racist.*
Sometimes politicians should just tell the truth and say “well, she was saying racist things, I assumed she meant them”.

CZ – I don’t know you, I don’t know if you’re racist. But you are a fellow traveller.

Ninfan – politically? Not a clue. Financially? Brexit will probably be good for me (though not so much for many others and I will be culturally poorer, probably less secure (Northumbria Police) and definitely a little sad for the demise of a force for good – but life goes on and money talks)

*to be fair she may not have been racist, just saying racist things.

On the racist thing, it all went wrong when Gordon Brown apologised to that racist woman for calling her racist

True, along with staying out of the € that was one thing Grodi got right. She expressed “bigoted” views.

Multiculturalism … okay … Let’s try this.

How many languages can you speak fluently?

BREXIT voters are still expecting clarity from a gang of absolute shysters you couldn’t trust to do **** anything, it has emerged.
Many Brexiters say that although they are still happy they voted to Leave, they now want the untrustworthy gang of lying bastards behind the referendum to ‘give them some clarity on it’.

Donna Sheridan said: “I just want to know exactly what it is I’ve voted for. Is that too much to ask for from a gang of totally self-serving careerist politicians?

“I mean, there’s no way Neil Hamilton would get behind something he didn’t fully understand.”

Martin Bishop said: “Just because these people would have told us measles was caused by ghosts if it served their personal agenda, doesn’t mean they don’t have a detailed plan for the most complex economic shift in recent political history.

“Look at Boris. That’s the face of a man who knows.”

😆

How many languages can you speak fluently?

0.9 in my case.

That’s more than a lot of Leave voters if the Internet is anything to go by.

a huge victory by the [/s]National SocialistsBrexiteeers

Far be it for me to defend the Nazis, but they showed *massive* commitment to uniting Europe under one Government and also to moving large numbers of workers between states.

Sitting in a bar next to a group of American ladies. They are discussing getting visas for Switzerland and Austria .
Imagine having to get a visa for each American state if you travelled to the US.
I really hope we don’t ever have to go through all that.

Try establishing a company in India or China our new preferred markets – gave me my first grey hairs

The only country I can recall ever needing a visa to visit was India, and they took so long over it that I wasn’t able to go.

Imagine having to get a visa for each American state if you travelled to the US.
I really hope we don’t ever have to go through all that.

its a piece of paper, why make life harder than you need to?

Everything i hear only reinforces that getting a second passport was a good idea.

And anyway who is paying for all the new passports in 2019?? I am assuming that Jamby will be happy to pay for my new blue passport as the current burgundy one is rendered invalid?

We have 350 million a week to cover the costs 🙄

The EU will negotiate the best for the EU, it’s what they should be doing and I can hold no bitterness or anger towards that.

Yup and there is a mutual benefit to free trade, good for them and good for us. Their arguments for restricting it are politcal not economic. There will be a cost to them of no free trade, they maybe prepared to oay that cost in order to try and protect “the project” / their very cushy high pay low tax EU Commission/Parliament jobs. The interesting owrt will be the interaction of EU member states who have much to lose.

Theresa May hit the nail on the head today, she said those that signed the various treaties have ignored the concerns of the people and there has been an adverse reaction. Politicans shouod learn from that.

Our arguments for leaving the EU are political not economic.

(Inasmuch as there are any arguments, as opposed to sound bites and slogans)