Also as Mrs B pointed out the French voted against the Maastricht treaty

You two are incredibly well suited to each other.

How has she forgotten the “petit oui”,

Some 51 per cent of French voted in favour of the Maastricht Treaty in September 1992, with 49 per cent against in a vote that bolstered Socialist president François Mitterrand’s hand and split the French Right. .

That little insight into #jambyplanet has genuinely made my day 😆

YOu literally could not make it up….well you two could but you know what I mean 😉

Brilliant

That little insight into #jambyplanet has genuinely made my day

I sort of picture them as the posh couple on Gogglebox

The more I listen to those coming out the woodwork: IMF, John Major, BoE … the more I think they are just sh!tting themselves that Britain will leave and undermine the whole eu experiment.

Sick to death of the whole bloody thing. None of their predictions can be validated and it is solely based on their opinion. If you look at the track record of some of these institutions it makes you bloody laugh that they have the audacity to stick their bloody noses in.

Re James Dyson…

He must be our most high profile business success of last 20 years and he’s firmly Leave as its bad for his business.

FFS, really? On what criteria?

Innovation? – I grant you the original Dyson vacuums were novel, but the technology came straight from the mineral processing industry…

Manufacturing / employment? Mostly offshore, presumably to avoid pesky European levels of overhead cost? If we leave, do we expect our manufacturing base to come flooding back? Because if they do it will be because we’ve all been screwed over so badly that we’ll be willing to work for two shillings a week, bank holidays off and works trip to the beach in the summer, bread, milk, bangers & mash and the after work pint…

… Just where the leaders of Brexit want us – slap bang back in the fifties 👿

Oh and an ETA as I’ve just re-read…

high profile business success of last 20 years

This tells us how it is possible to be successful as a business in the EU… i.e. success built entirely within the period of our membership

IMF can predict the future? 😯 If they can then I want their crystal ball. 😛

They are the Megalodon of the loan shark world! 😆

Vote OUT!

Just out of interest Jamba, of those people you say visited your stall in Southampton, how many were potential undecideds? Or are most people visiting your stand just wanting to reinforce their already trenchantly held beliefs with others of similar ilk.
I get the feeling that both sides who are out campaigning are often only encountering those who want reinforcement rather than information, therefore both sides are gaining an exaggerated idea of their support in the community.
It’s a bit like those who comment in the Daily Heil, they say ‘ every one I know is going to vote leave, the polls are rigged’. It may be that most of the people they Know have that point of view, but that doesn’t mean that the majority of the population who don’t read the rag don’t have very different views. Or that the people they think are agreeing with them are not but they are too blinkered to realise it.
Also, many of those who disagree with a particular position are, in my experience, not likely to do so at such a stall, they would just ignore it. This is therefore likely to give a false positive impression to those manning it about the support in that location. I for one,who profoundly disagrees with the Leave Campaign, would walk to the other side of the street to avoid a Brexsist

AKA confirmation bias. See it all the time up here (everyone will vote yes, nobody will vote Labour, nobody will vote Tory).

Just where the leaders of Brexit want us – slap bang back in the fifties

If you haven’t read this…

I take that that book isn’t to be judged by its cover…

ETA – Just read an interesting review on that…!

@JY I’ll take that up with Mrs B, it’s what she told me. Indeed she’s more right wing than me, closer to say a Hillary Clinton. 51/49 was hardly a ringing endorsement of the Treaty was it 😯 that’s in France supposedly one of the most pro EU countries at the very centre of the organisation

@jimw all those we spoke to left saying they where Leave or more inclined to Leave, to be honest that was only a handful maybe 5 or 6 people and of course people may just be being polite. One thing that was interesting was the number of people both comitted Leave and unsure who where intimidated by being called racist for expressing concerns about immigration, this didn’t change their views but meant they where afraid to speak out.

What I do see is that the Leave camp are much mkre passionate and active than the Remains and imo more likely to actually vote. I think we saw in the 2015 GE that thise who actually voted where more Tory than those who just andwered a telephone poll. Given everything stacked against the Leave campaign rescoure wise I think thats the most powerful factor towards a vote Leave victory.

Europe is very sick economically with unsustainable levels of Government debt and a political structure which cannot cope. If we do Remain the impending disaster will most badly effect the British working class and it will affect them very badly indeed. There is clear scope for a very substantial increase in wealth inequality as those at the bottom see welfare cut very significantly and wages undermined by a greater influx of Europeans looking for work as their domestic economies tank. The UK’s wealthier citizens will become increasingly defensive reducing spending as well as seeing reductions in income.

I am personally very pessimistic, more so than ever before even in 2007 when I thought the crises would take 10 yeats to work out. The reality is we are no where near dealing wiith the problems and with rgeard to European Government debt we are actually in a far worse position.

The vote in 40 days time, thank God its not a 2yr process like in Scotland. Not sure I could cope with this level lf nonsense for much longer

jambalaya
What I do see is that the Leave camp are much mkre passionate and active than the Remains and imo more likely to actually vote.

This is so familiar. I have heard this passion before.
Jambers. Please realise that Scot nats are your kin.

Sick to death of the whole bloody thing. None of their predictions can be validated and it is solely based on their opinion. If you look at the track record of some of these institutions it makes you bloody laugh that they have the audacity to stick their bloody noses in.

Which side are you talking about?

Wonder if we have any new #jambyfacts after his leave rally? Did anyone point out your arguments were full of holes and based on made up shit?

Did anyone point out your arguments were full of holes and based on made up shit?

Haha. That’s why I love this thread. And the remain camps arguments are 100% accurate?

Don’t be so friggin ignorant.

‘Take a punt’ 😯

Said it before I’ll say it again. Only gamble if you can afford to lose. We can’t afford to lose.

EDIT – damn should have quoted to frustrate ninja edit

Haha. That’s why I love this thread. And the remain camps arguments are 100% accurate?
Don’t be so friggin ignorant.

Some truth in that, though the OUT campaign currently is the one ending up with more egg on its face then the IN it appears..

You could almost say it’s a case of whose telling the least number of lies & which of those lies you like the most??

Some lies..

If you are not prepared to take a punt then you are basically saying that there is no alternative option and we’ll just go with the flow. If that is the case then I also think you need to look at the future of the union and accept that there will be a high probability of unified political union across member states and total governance by Brussels.

http://www.euractiv.com/section/eu-priorities-2020/news/merkel-calls-for-political-union-to-save-the-euro/

Fudging the figures regarding total contribution to the eu is stupid, but in the scheme of things it’s no where near as misleading as a 14 year treasury forecast regarding household incomes. The list goes on and on regarding the speculative scaremongering that is coming out of the remain camp.

Merkel wants greater political union? No shit Sherlock? We wil be claiming that the worlds is round soon, well perhaps not if we are Brexiteers.

To be successful, a currency union requires common monetary and fiscal policies which in turn requires political union. This is a known, known – see above.

We are not part of the process. We know that (unless you ae a Brexiteers it seems), the rest of the EU knows that, so does the RoW. Of course, we are not unique in that position altough I “think” that we are unique in having his clearly stated in our recent deal – see above.

All we are debating, or should be debating, is what is the best way to interact with the groups of countries that are going in that direction, the others like us and the RoW. It’s pretty bleeding obvious that the status quo, while not perfect, is better than the Out option – hence need for Brexiteers to make stuff up with gay abandon.

Fudging the figures regarding total contribution to the eu is stupid, but in the scheme of things it’s no where near as misleading as a 14 year treasury forecast regarding household incomes.

Other way round. It’s easy to be correct with basic facts, another known, known. Forecasts especially over 14 years are just that forecasts, and have only one thing that is certain. They won’t happen. Another known, known (there is a trend here) They are merely pointers based on certain assumptions that happen to be interesting or irrelevant (you decide).

But your claim needs to be reversed if it is to stand any scrutiny. Unless you are a Brexiteer, when you can just make stuff up for fun (it seems)

51/49 was hardly a ringing endorsement of the Treaty was it

IIRC you need to get to 54 v 46 before one can calling it emphatic. 😀

Please realise that Scot nats are your kin

My thoughts as well and it was rather ironic as the arguments are just as passionate and rely on, largely, ignoring, any counter view.

And the remain camps arguments are 100% accurate?
Don’t be so friggin ignorant.

I think we can all agree they are both sometimes in hyperbole overdrive
I agree the leave sometimes exaggerate how bad it will be[ some do look like lies/just made up] but at least their basic point will be true unlike leave who are just making it up that it will be brilliant if we leave and live in denial- Jamby was arguing tariffs would leave us quids in for example 😯

Neither campaign has been that good tbh but leaves view is false and remains view is exaggerated.

It’s a very strange debate this and I actually agree with everything THM wrote. The campaigns do make for some interesting bed fellows

It’s pretty bleeding obvious that the status quo, while not perfect, is better than the Out option

Bleeding obvious based on what hard facts?

Feel the fear and do it anyway!

No. Consider the facts and make the rational conclusion. C’est facile …vraiment.

flanagaj ” If that is the case then I also think you need to look at the future of the union and accept that there will be a high probability of unified political union across member states and total governance by Brussels.”

So what? Politics changes and moves on- things don’t always stay the same, no matter how conservative you’d like things to be. We don’t have the same economic, social, political make-up we had in say the 1950s- is that a bad thing too?

And if we leave, are you intending to then immediately lobby to have all the undemocratic, unelected, unresponsible elements removed in our domestic politics as well? Or are they ok because they’re ‘British’?

Bleeding obvious based on what hard facts?

😯
One only has to be rational. THM and I are as far apart as its possible to get [ no my mistake he is neutral] on both politics and economic views and we agree …its just the truth.

As noted it sometimes get overstated but to deny it is just a sign of abject stupidity.

Now, I know this is going to be deemed contentious, but I’ll post anyway. As we are all entitled to our opinion. I see the eu and ever closer union as a subtle way by Germany of being in control of eu member states without a repeat of WW2.

I totally understand and sympathise with Putin with regards to the way the EU has marched right up to Russia’s door taking in countries that were once part of the USSR.

Well if portraying germany as expansionist hell bent on WW2 type domination and agreeing with Putin wont persuade folk off your case and its rational base then what will 😯

Well if portraying germany as expansionist hell bent on WW2 type domination and agreeing with Putin wont persuade folk off your case and its rational base then what will

Let’s reconvene this topic in 10 to 20 years time. We can pass judgement then. Until then cheerio.

Jambers. Please realise that Scot nats are your kin.

In this regard I agree. I hope Leave can better their Referendum result and match their electoral success. Difference with the UK is if there ever was a parliamentary majority for a pro-exit party there is a mechanism for unilateral action, trigger article 50

@Lifer the economc consequences of staying in the EU are very negative far worse than the risks of leaving in my opionion. The EU and the euro is built of financial quicksand, Greece is bust and it will be the largest sovereign defauit ever – not a bad effort for a country of 11m people whose economic suicide was ignored by Germany, France et-al and whose admitance to the euro was hugely irresponsible (at least Sarkozy now oublically admits what an error it was). If we vote Remain in 3, 6, 12 … (?) months when Greece defaukts and contagion to the rest of the EU is front and centre then we can have this discussion again about where the real risks lay and what with hindsight woukd have been the better course of action.

@tmh whereas you are evey open that an inevitable move to a european superstate is required to save the euro (even that might not happen soon enough to save the currency) we don’t hear such honesty from Corbyn who talks only of remaining in a reformed EU.

The IMF’s intervention yesterday lead me to up my donation to Vote Leave, their deliberate timing of releasing further “opinion pieces” the 19th is outrageous.

JY it’s an inconvenient truth that Europe’s advances to Ukraine was a key part in provoking Putin. Its also very much the case that Merkel and Hollande wanted to do little about the annexation of Crimea, Obhama told them quite clearly “its Europe’s problem, you take action”. Hollande had to be forced to cancel the aircraft carrier delivery, he didn’t want to at all. We can see in this, and so many other examples, what a dogs breakfast the European Superstate would be, they’ve fone a bit quiet on the Army idea but a European border force was being discussed just a few minths ago, armed troops to be sent into other sovereign nations to “police” their borders. No thanks

If you are not prepared to take a punt then you are basically saying that there is no alternative option and we’ll just go with the flow

We’re not talking about having a cheeky fiver on the 3:10 at Chepstow.

if there ever was a parliamentary majority for a pro-exit party

Well they have only ever managed to have 1 MP so i wont be holding my breath

the economc consequences of staying in the EU are very negative far worse than the risks of leaving in my opionion

And your views are well know for their rational and factual basis

we don’t hear such honesty from Corbyn

FFS still having anti Corbyn rants 😯
Do you hear it from Dave then or George? Must do and that is why you singled out Corbyn….its definitely not your political/personal animus masquerading as a point 🙄

just a sign of abject stupidity.

Well, that’s the flaw with the whole referendum and the muppets that suggested it. 40-50 years of raising stupid, generation after generation that “value” ignorance as some sort of virtue. Democracy – doesn’t work if you don’t have an informed electorate, and a substantial proportion of ours just does not want to be informed 🙁

Ohh, and this

have a punt mentality

…

FFS, this is jobs and livelihoods, ours’, our kids’ and grandkids’…

And, if anyone wants to know what the UK might look like outside the EU, pop across the Irish Sea to Douglas. I’ve visited the Isle of Man quite a few times, including staying with locals.

First impressions are that it’s fantastic – Britain without the “EU” bullshit. Hell, they don’t even have speed limits on the open road, and can hold road races on normal roads…! It really, really does feel like the UK in a previous time.

Get a bit below the surface and you also find the less appealing side of “Britain in the 50s, 60s or 70s”.
Pubs are pubs – don’t even think of taking kids in as part of a family meal ( remember when the UK was like that???)

Justice is swift, summary and somewhat arbitrary. Coppers & the magistrate aren’t to be argued with. If they don’t like the cut of your jib, then the verdict is likely to be “constable, take him to the port, put him on the boat and tell him not to come back”. This might sound quite quaint and appealing, but don’t even think about appealing. Power / authority is vested in certain individuals, is arbitrary and not to be challenged (all IMHO, but I stayed with a pair of IoM coppers and their take was very interesting)

Remember Clarkson revelled in all this when he moved there – until he fell foul of the authorities about a footpath…

Flange and Jambas – interesting point about Russian encirclement and one with which I have considerable sympathy. However, remember who made the promise and who broke it. The EU? No, it wasn’t so let’s not misuse historical facts. It was a NATO decision and NATO actions that have (unsurprisingly) pissed the Russians off.

NATO and EU are different things as Bojo never hesitates to remind us.

Ohh, and this
have a punt mentality
…
FFS, this is jobs and livelihoods, ours’, our kids’ and grandkids’…

Not enough ++++++ in the World for that!

I see the eu and ever closer union as a subtle way by Germany of being in control of eu member states without a repeat of WW2.

Quite seriously WTF???

mrlebowski – Member

I see the eu and ever closer union as a subtle way by Germany of being in control of eu member states without a repeat of WW2.

Quite seriously WTF??? [/quote]

Why not? That is one possibility if Germany is looking after number one.

Slight hijack.
I don’t know about you lot but I have noticed the behaviour of some of the German politicians are getting a bit weird as they becoming very too eager to please their Chancellor. Have you seen the political entourage surrounding her? A bit like their previous WWII Chancellor surrounded by his too eager “advisors” innit.

Has it really taken 47 pages before someone links the euro to Hitler?
If so wow. And seriously? You are suggesting that?

grahamt1980 – Member
Has it really taken 47 pages before someone links the euro to Hitler?
If so wow. And seriously? You are suggesting that?

Nope. I am not making that link but just saying some of the politicians are behaving weirdly. i.e. the too eager to please type. Have you seen those political entourage accompanying their leader? A bit like they are trying to lick her boots clean because of her “god” ike image? (not sure if I have expressed this correctly but that’s how we describe them in the far east)

Junkyard – lazarus

At least this time you chose to not pretend that you did not bring up the german manufacturers though

Never did pretend.
You simply struggle to understand the difference between trading and having a trade agreement, hence my very simple example.

Yes but the problem is the sweet shop is in the EU and the country does not have the power to do this as you need an agreement with the entire EU not that country. That was my point and it is still true and you are still wrong. I am sure if we keep doing this you will eventually grasp the really complicated point that you cannot have trade agreements with countries in the EU you can only have them with the EU…Do you want a picture of a trading bloc now?

You’ve erected a strawman.
The sweetshop example was just there to try and explain the difference between trading and having a trade agreement, which you still seem to be struggling with.

Television.
Television remote.

Fish.
Fish tank.

Do you get it now?

Try and spend a little less time typing and a little more time reading.
I’d much rather discuss things that have been said, rather than things that haven’t.
Arguing against things I haven’t said doesn’t make me wrong, it makes you look silly. Especially when you take such delight in pointing it out to others. 💡

I see the eu and ever closer union as a subtle way by Germany of being in control of eu member states without a repeat of WW2.

Yes we need to leave the EU so we can have another war with Germany. The intervening 70 years of peace have been very boring, and this time they’d stand no chance as we have nukes and they don’t. 😀

😀

Dont be so rash…which side are the Americans on?

On the positive side if Bexit as sugested by many “wise” men leads to a breakup of the EU we would be able to trade with every one 😉