Scotland and rUK have similar economic positions, values and a largely shared culture.

NOW they do yes 🙂

The EU is totally dysfunctional. Broken. Kaput.

But we still trade for free with EU countries, don’t we? Which was one of its key features, and that still works, doesn’t it? If no-one bothered then you’d be right, but we do. So it IS working.

The EU is totally dysfunctional. Broken. Kaput.

The problem you have with your statement is that before you can say it is broken, you have define what it is for. If you can not define what it is for, you can not say whether it is broken.

The idea of creating a new country (which I’m not entirely against – countries are after all transitory) is merely a tool not an end.

I think the EU, amongst other institutions, is for creating stability in an area which has been responsible for ripping the world apart twice in the last hundred years (and caused a lot of trouble on a regular basis for a lot longer).

On that basis, while it has had its problems, it has been spectacularly successful so far.

Long may it continue, and we continue to be part of it.

In other news, some interesting legal opinions and tactics being bandied about with regard to Brexit and A50. Looks like it could actually be in both sides interests to lose in the appeal court.

The EU is totally dysfunctional. Broken. Kaput.

In your opinion.

I quite like it.

No doubt the EU suffers from having various people’s project aims applied to it, but it’s more than just a club. It’s fundamental now to how we work now we’ve been in it for so long.

In other news, some interesting legal opinions and tactics being bandied about with regard to Brexit and A50. Looks like it could actually be in both sides interests to lose in the appeal court.

Interesting – links?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/11/brexit-could-be-reversed-government-lawyers-may-argue?CMP=oth_b-aplnews_d-2#img-1

I’m a Yorkshireman first, British second and European thirdly.

And proud to be all three.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/11/brexit-could-be-reversed-government-lawyers-may-argue?CMP=oth_b-aplnews_d-2#img-1

Still not convinced, I’d have thought that sovereignty is about making decisions, not about being able to undo (but only within 2 years) decisions the government makes.

I think I’d prefer it that way though, at least it would be an objective decision where the outcomes are known. It would probably make sense to have another referendum where the public can vote based on facts rather than the delusions of political ambition…

rather than the delusions of political ambition

Nah it’ll be the same characters having spent the previous 2 years meticulously plotting the order in which they will tread on their colleagues to get to the top job.

That’s politicians for you! There’s that saying that wanting to be a politician should automatically disqualify you from being one. I can see the logic in that!

Neb – Member
It would probably make sense to have another referendum where the public can vote based on facts rather than the delusions of political ambition…

I am afraid all the facts have been presented with the people deciding the right facts is to exit.

If you wish for another referendum then you should wait for another 50 years before deciding if there is a need for another one.

Referendum is not a annual thing you know coz it’s once in a life time.

Yes, Once in a life time.

Yes, Once in a life time.

In your opinion.

I am afraid all the facts have been presented with the people deciding the right facts is to exit.

Er, what post Referendum reporting have you been reading/watching – the kids news? Both sides agree that the facts were not presented correctly, accurately and in full.

Neb – Member
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/11/brexit-could-be-reversed-government-lawyers-may-argue?CMP=oth_b-aplnews_d-2#img-1
Still not convinced, I’d have thought that sovereignty is about making decisions, not about being able to undo (but only within 2 years) decisions the government makes.

I am unsure of this, whether or not ir could be reversed is for th EU court to decide not the Supreme Court surely?

Also with that stance there is no guarentee that parliament would have a chance to vote on reversal?

I am afraid all the facts have been presented with the people deciding the right facts is to exit.

Okay, give me a list of the facts that were presented that people used to decide their vote

You won’t be able to because no facts were presented, the people decided based on prejudice and lies.
– The well known cost lie (£350MM a week and how it could go to NHS)
– Immigration lies (the net £ effect on UK)

The only thing that came close to facts was in the ‘project fear’ data.

And the fact that the exit vote was based on an unspecified exit is even worse. If I was in government I would get the ext box ticked with as little change to what we already have as possible. So I have done what 51% of people voted for but maybe not how they perceived it would be done – tough, be careful what you vote for…

I’d have thought the obvious route for the PM is pretty much what she is doing now – to look and see what is available (India, us, Australia, etc), work out what the future relationship with the EU is likely to be, work out timescales, work out impact on the economy and put it back out to a referendum. I know that that is what I’d do.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11/11/more-than-80-mps-join-lib-dem-plot-to-force-government-to-hold-a/

mille 80 vs 440 🙂

Lib Dems are just trying to be different to generate some media exposure for themselves

Neb I appreciate you’d want to put it to another Referendum as you voted Remain

It’s not just that i voted remain, I’d be more than happy if people voted to leave in a 2nd referendum (or even the first referendum) as long as facts were the basis of their decision.

It boils my piss the fact that so many people voted for something on the basis of lies, driven by the naked ambition of a handful of politicians.

I don’t believe a 2nd referendum is any less valid, a referendum is just a snapshot in time of public opinion.

Would you honestly not prefer a mandate to leave the EU based on an actual proper vote by people that actually have something to base their decision on? For me, it comes down to integrity, the public will end up feeling cheated (because they were!) Surely it would be better for the government to ask a follow up question along the lines, “this is whats going to happen, are you sure you want to do this?”

It’s not just that i voted remain, I’d be more than happy if people voted to leave in a 2nd referendum (or even the first referendum) as long as facts were the basis of their decision.

So if the vote had been stay you’d be demanding another referendum because of project fear?

Tbh the lack of plan was the worst. A leave vote was not a vote for anything specific. A remain vote was.

We all know there was no plan because the government didn’t want an exit and tried to make an exit as hard as possible.

Tbh the lack of plan was the worst. A leave vote was not a vote for anything specific.

I think you’ll find that it was… in fact, the electoral commission went so far as modifying the originally proposed question to make sure that it was: http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/find-information-by-subject/elections-and-referendums/upcoming-elections-and-referendums/eu-referendum/eu-referendum-question-assessment

That is not specific at all. Asking do you want to leave the EU but not in which way or how.
There are many ways to leave with various options. The option to stay was to just stay as it already is which is very clear.

Bit late now. Maybe you should have whined more before the event.

So if the vote had been stay you’d be demanding another referendum because of project fear?

The project fear thing was at least based on studies from experts that ‘might’ turn out to be pessimistic once we’ve left the EU. It’s a bit early for them to be called outright lies just yet. The leave campaign was mainly just outright lies.

The denigration of experts was another thing that I can’t get my head around. Farage telling an actual world renowned expert that he doesn’t know what he’s talking about and it’d be better to trust him (Farage) instead.

Mind blowing! 😯

Edit – it might have Give instead, one of those untrustworthy cretins at any rate

Asking do you want to leave the EU but not in which way or how.

Gave the very clear result that Yes, we wanted to leave the EU. Your argument is as fatuous as saying that a vote to remain was ambiguous because some people wanted reform, some people wanted greater integration, some people wanted to join the Euro, some people wanted to remain but cut immigration etc.

It was a simple binary choice, the country weighed the options and voted out.

It was a simple binary choice, the country weighed the options and voted out.

and out means what?

and as a frame of reference, if we had voted to remain, would we have adopted the euro, scrapped all opt outs, switched the side of the road we drove on, full metric-ician in march next year?

It was a simple binary choice, the country weighed the options and voted out.

But they weren’t given the options, that’s the point! They were lied to and given populistic rhetoric to appeal to their basest ideals. That’s exactly why I have an issue with brexit.

But the four people I know who voted to leave all aspired to completely different versions of being outside the EU and had different motivations (from being anarchists to thinking it would rebalance the economy in favour of manufacturing).

It was a simple binary choice, the country weighed the options and voted out.

Where’s the £350m per week for the NHS?
How’s the border comtrol going?
The main point is that the country didn’t weigh up the options, the thick muppets voted out based on the flimsiest of bullshitty promises. 😆
Fair play, it takes some balls to say that.
Ninfantasy.

It was a simple binary choice, the country weighed the options and voted out where out meant many many different things to many different people and their is no unamity amongst them as to what out means

FinishedTFY

We voted out we all knwo that we also all know we have no idea what sort of out we voted for nor what sort of out our elected leaders want never mind what we will get.

It meant very many different things to different people and the only thing they had in common was to vote out

In much the same way had in won there were those happy with it as it was those who wanted to reform it and those who wanted further integration.

Folk voted the same way for many different reasons

If you honestly don’t understand where we’re coming from, remind me never to buy anything 2nd hand from you.

It’ll not be as described, not do what I want it to and I’ll wish I’d bought something else. But hey, you’ll have got your money so no harm done? Right?

it was binary choice you either wanted to buy it or you did not 😉

Ninfan – just for a laugh, given the wording of the question, presumably if we leave the EU but remain in the single market, paying subsidies, and with the four freedoms intact, then you would be happy because that would be (under the wording of the question) what people voted for?

If not then I think your detractors may have a point in suggesting that nobody actually knows exactly what was voted for.

Good one IGM.

And Ninfan, it is also a binary question, a yes or a no will do.

If that was the best outcome we could get from negotiations (and I don’t think it would be) then fine.

I’m sure that the results at the ballot box at the next election would reflect it.

I suspect the results of the next election will reflect JCs appeal to the electorate more than anything else. Theresa is a very lucky PM.

JC?

Jesus Christ, Jeremy Clarkson, Jeremy Corbyn.

I lurk on.

But the four people I know who voted to leave all aspired to completely different versions of being outside the EU and had different motivations (from being anarchists to thinking it would rebalance the economy in favour of manufacturing).

Yet, they all agreed on and voted for one thing.

You know how some people support unilateral nuclear disarmament, and others oppose it, but they still manage to both vote for Labour…

And like some people voted from scottish independence despite it being uncertain whether they would Ethan EU membership, and others voted against Scottish independence, despite the clear warning from Salmond that there might be an EU referendum that took them out of the EU…

Where’s the £350m per week for the NHS?
How’s the border comtrol going?

I think it’s due to kick in after the complete collapse of western political civilisation like Remain promised me

The main point is that the country didn’t weigh up the options, the thick muppets voted out based on the flimsiest of bullshitty promises.

What about the thick muppets who voted to remain because they were afraid that the stock market would collapse (it didn’t) that David Cameron wouldn’t resign (he did) article 50 would be invoked immediately (it wasn’t) border controls would move to Dover (they havent) or that the UK would be forced to the back of the queue for a trade deal with the USA (lI think that claim has been clearly Trumped)

You forgot Osborne’s punishment budget.