Viewing 40 posts - 15,121 through 15,160 (of 77,140 total)
  • EU Referendum – are you in or out?
  • grumpysculler
    Free Member

    So it seems that Trump has won, despite Clinton getting a higher percentage of the popular vote,

    Except it isn’t by very much, some states have still to return and if the popular vote was what mattered then the candidates would campaign differently. You didn’t see Trump in California (for example) because they were always going to give their electoral college votes to Clinton. If the popular vote mattered, he might have dropped by to get a few.

    The electoral college system affects the campaign, not just the results.

    So having legally shown that our parliament now needs to vote on article 50 before its’ implementation, and given that in the absence of the Whip, most MPs have previously said they would vote to remain in the EU, could the vagaries of our own democratic process also overturn the popular vote?

    It might happen, although unlikely. But it won’t be presented as overturning the popular vote – it will be “I support Brexit because the people said so, but not on the terms the government is proposing.”

    I doubt any MP is prepared to stand up and say “the referendum outcome was wrong” but that does’t mean that they will support the government’s Brexit bill.

    Some MPs may vote with their constituency result which I think is fair enough although not the point of the referendum.

    jambalaya
    Free Member

    cchris change.org put a graphic out, had this been a general election it would have been Leave 408 Remain 242 – that’s why MPs will not vote against A50

    Edukator unserstood, thanks for contributing

    Kelvin I am all for Economic co-operation, it should be without a Parliament, ECJ having no jurisdiction over anything except trade disputes, no freedom of movement (replaced with a visa system), no Schengen, euro needs to be completely overhauled or abandoned. Being an EU member ties our hands in being able to forge links goobally,mthat’s a big negative.

    Peyote I don’t want to a citizen of a United States of Europe. I am British and proud of what that represents in terms of our history and our future. I am happy to live in most countries but I’d like to remain British thanks very much. The EU has proven incompetent at just about everything why would I switch being British for that disaster ?

    outofbreath
    Free Member

    “if the popular vote was what mattered then the candidates would campaign differently”

    Very good point.

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    Junkyard
    Free Member

    Except it isn’t by very much

    which in no way negates the point made and just agrees with it
    Its hard to argue the winner,in a popularity contest, is the one with the least votes.

    mrmo
    Free Member

    The EU has proven incompetent at just about everything why would I switch being British for that disaster ?

    That british history, how many people has it killed? Maybe it is time to try something different.

    grumpysculler
    Free Member

    Its hard to argue the winner,in a popularity contest, is the one with the least votes.

    Except if you read more than six words from my post, it isn’t a popularity contest. It is a state-by-state contest to gain electoral college votes. The campaigns are run with that objective.

    Change the rules, it becomes a popularity contest.

    Peyote
    Free Member

    Peyote I don’t want to a citizen of a United States of Europe. I am British and proud of what that represents in terms of our history and our future. I am happy to live in most countries but I’d like to remain British thanks very much. The EU has proven incompetent at just about everything why would I switch being British for that disaster ?

    Fair enough. I do though, I’m quite happy being British, English and European. I don’t think being part of any of those negates the other and I’m interested in why anyone would?

    If I may draw a tenuous parallel, I’m sure some Californians regard themselves as both Californian and American without falling into the “doublethink” that you appear to dislike. Why does it have to be one or the other?

    As far as incompetence goes, I’m sure we can all think of similar disasters that the British have inflicted on themselves and others. Likewise pretty much any group of people who consider themselves a particular “tribe”. Certainly I have been and continue to be embarrassed and proud of my heritage…

    cchris2lou
    Full Member

    Being proud to be British is not incompatible with being European.
    Before being from the World, Europe, France, occitanie, Aveyron, I’m a millavois ( from Millau) .
    It doesn’t mean I cannot be part of a wider group. If that group makes sense humanly, economically and more.
    I m even proud of my town of adoption in the UK.

    kimbers
    Full Member

    I’m quite happy being British, English and European.

    +1

    molgrips
    Free Member

    I don’t want to a citizen of a United States of Europe. I am British and proud of what that represents in terms of our history and our future.

    You can be both. The Scots and Welsh have been dealing with this for several hundred years. British is your personal identity, no-one can ever remove that and no-one wants to. You can however legally be European without diminishing your Britishness.

    That attitude is nothing but misplaced sentiment.

    If you are pro-UK then your position is completely hypocritical. You cannot wish the Scots and Welsh to be part of the UK whilst simultaneously objecting to the UK being an EU member. Those positions are incompatible.

    mrmo
    Free Member

    If I may draw a tenuous parallel, I’m sure some Californians regard themselves as both Californian and American without falling into the “doublethink” that you appear to dislike. Why does it have to be one or the other?

    and as some Californians are campaigning for succession, not really that distant a comparison.

    outofbreath
    Free Member

    “I’m quite happy being British, English and European”

    None of which will change whatever happens.

    ahwiles
    Free Member

    er… apart from our rights to live work and travel wherever we want within Europe…

    outofbreath
    Free Member

    Someone in prison can’t travel and work freely in Europe, they don’t stop being European.

    onewheelgood
    Full Member

    If you are pro-UK then your position is completely hypocritical. You cannot wish the Scots and Welsh to be part of the UK whilst simultaneously objecting to the UK being an EU member. Those positions are incompatible.

    Absolutely true, but utterly irrelevant. As long as more than 50% of the population prefers irrational and uninformed emotion, any appeal to logic and facts is pointless.

    outofbreath
    Free Member

    “If you are pro-UK then your position is completely hypocritical. You cannot wish the Scots and Welsh to be part of the UK whilst simultaneously objecting to the UK being an EU member.”

    Why not? It’s all completely arbitrary.

    mrmo
    Free Member

    As long as more than 50% of the population

    If it was you might have a point but it is only c25% who want out the rest is equally split between want in didn’t vote and weren’t allowed to vote.

    People are ready to complain but far less likely to compliment, which suggests those most fired up to vote are those who wanted out, which suggests most people are happy with the state quo.

    outofbreath
    Free Member

    “most people are happy with the state quo.”

    Most people were, nobody GAF about the EU until the Referendum got close.

    Now we’re all ****ing experts on tarrifs. It’s like the West Lothian question – better not to ask it.

    5thElefant
    Free Member

    which suggests most people are happy with the state quo.

    It suggests most people don’t care one way or another.

    molgrips
    Free Member

    Or simply don’t know how to decide.

    mrmo
    Free Member

    It suggests most people don’t care one way or another.

    which is the same thing, the question is how they would feel after brexit.

    5thElefant
    Free Member

    which is the same thing, the question is how they would feel after brexit.

    I guess when we ask them again we’ll find out. Pencil in 2056 for the update.

    mefty
    Free Member

    This is absolutely brutal and brilliantly argued.

    molgrips
    Free Member

    The term ‘liberal’ there seems to encompass a massive range of human thinking, so it’s too big of a target to be useful.. that article seems to vary a lot on what it’s attacking.

    Junkyard
    Free Member

    If you are pro-UK then your position is completely hypocritical. You cannot wish the Scots and Welsh to be part of the UK whilst simultaneously objecting to the UK being an EU member. Those positions are incompatible.

    I did find it strange how fok were pro one union and anti another- I include myself in that analysis

    I guess the message is the English dont mind being in a union they dominate but dont want to be a partner in one they dont dominate.

    The scottish might just dislike the Tories more than the europeans.

    jambalaya
    Free Member

    I guess the message is the English dont mind being in a union they dominate but dont want to be a partner in one they dont dominate.

    That’s your interpretation not mine. You’ll notice in my post I did not mention being English. I’d give up the English tag, it’s not a country in the same way neither is Scotland or Wales. We are citizens of the United Kingdom, a diverse and wonderful country.

    @mefty, thanks that was an excellent read. I think it’s the definition of Liberalism which is the issue, we can (and will be) a liberal country outside the EU.

    5thElefant
    Free Member

    I guess the message is the English dont mind being in a union they dominate but dont want to be a partner in one they dont dominate.

    That’s unfair. More English than Scottish would like Scotland to leave the union. 😀

    molgrips
    Free Member

    I did find it strange how fok were pro one union and anti another- I include myself in that analysis

    After writing that I had to have a bit of a think to make sure my position was still consitent 🙂

    You’ll notice in my post I did not mention being British. I’d give up the British tag, it’s not a country in the same way neither is France or Germany. We are citizens of the United States of Europe, a diverse and wonderful country

    They’re not countries because they’ve been absorbed by a union. You really have said nothing to refute the allegation of hypocrisy. Why is one union bad and the other good?

    mefty
    Free Member

    Why is one union bad and the other good?

    Because one works and the other doesn’t?

    molgrips
    Free Member

    Because one works and the other doesn’t?

    That’s a bit of a difficult thing to demonstrate really. Because you don’t know how much worse of we’d all be if we weren’t in the EU. There are so many factors pulling on our economy, you’d be hard pressed to identify the EU specifically in them.

    So in other words – bollocks.

    igm
    Full Member

    cchris change.org put a graphic out, had this been a general election it would have been Leave 408 Remain 242 – that’s why MPs will not vote against A50

    Interesting that change.org can double guess the result of a FPTP election on a factor that has never been tested in Britain in such an election.

    For example Milliband in Doncaster. 70% quit, 30% stay. But in FPTP you rarely need anything like 50% to win. So Milliband stands as remain and probably bags 30% straight off. Right wing and left wing quit candidates (and perhaps a closet facist or two) split the quit vote, couple of bregret voters and he’s in in say 40% of the vote.

    Provided the stay stalwarts don’t put anyone else up in addition.

    I guess in simple terms – don’t expect a simplified yes/no vote to be repeated in a multi-candidate election.

    igm
    Full Member

    That’s your interpretation not mine. You’ll notice in my post I did not mention being English. I’d give up the English tag, it’s not a country in the same way neither is Scotland or Wales. We are citizens of the United Kingdom, a diverse and wonderful country.

    Which identifies you as English.

    Scot, Briton and European and proud of it. Living in Yorkshire which I love.

    To be fair, I have some sympathy with the England not a country thing – it does lack an identity. Some of the counties, certainly Yorkshire, have stronger identies than England – in my opinion which others will disagree with.

    Clover
    Full Member

    Does the EU work?

    Maybe it’s just coincidence that we were the slowest growing country in the G7 before we joined the EU. And the fastest after. I’d hazard a guess that it works for us.

    More annoying facts from the FT here.

    Northwind
    Full Member

    Junkyard – lazarus

    I did find it strange how fok were pro one union and anti another- I include myself in that analysis

    It’s not really that complex is it? It’s not about being pro or anti unions, it’s about specifics. You can be in favour of closer political union but unhappy with the EU, frinstance.

    Nipper99
    Free Member

    I guess the message is the English dont mind being in a union they dominate but dont want to be a partner in one they dont dominate.

    Plus 1.

    Re the draft Wales Bill – what happened to taking back control?

    mefty
    Free Member

    Maybe it’s just coincidence

    Maybe it is – because our economy has under gone an awful lot of change that has very little to do with the EU.

    The simple fact is 55% of Scots, who voted, voted to retain the union, so it seems to work for them. Yet 52% of UK citizens, who voted, didn’t follw their example with the EU as they presumably think it doesn’t work for them.

    jambalaya
    Free Member

    The EU is totally dysfunctional. Broken. Kaput.

    The EU wants to create a new country, a fusion of existing nations. No thanks. We have a successful country which has forged an identity of hundreds of years.

    Had in 1975 the British people been presented with anything like today’s EU they would imo have voted No. You only have to read the ’75 leaflet to see it made clear the EEC was to be nothing like the EU, no definitely not.

    In trade deal news much talk of UK joining a new North Atlantic Free Trade agreement with Trump revising the terms of NAFTA, 503m people accross US, Mexico, Canada and UK.

    igm
    Full Member

    Now that’s hilarious

    jambalaya
    Free Member

    Scotland and rUK have similar economic positions, values and a largely shared culture. You quite simply cannot say that about the UK and 27 other countries.

    Economics, rUK would have to pay for pretty much all the same stuff eg civil service inc diplomats, military etc but with a lower tax and revenue base if Scotland became independent. Leaving the EU we save the budget contribution and almost certainly need less bureaucracy.

    Voting No and Leave is entirely consistent imho.

    jambalaya
    Free Member

    Now that’s hilarious

    Happy Friday 🙂 I assume you mean the NAFTA part rather than all of it !

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