Whats the best I can hope for now, as a slightly-resigned Remainer?

Will I see full scrutiny, inc in public, of the Brexit plans? I know they’re essentially non-existent but had hoped that this would allow me to interrogate my MP to have the ‘plans’ revealed for our consideration.

The govt will fight this by saying that it will give our hand away to Europe, of course. They’ve been saying that up to now anyway.

What I’m really hoping for is retaining single-market access.

The four freedoms are still very possible.

Probably end up paying more to Brussels, but having no say in the rules. Possibly less standardisation of law across Europe – in so far as it ever was standard.

A GE would settle it definitively as could be I suppose, does mean another 4 years of right wing rule, there’s plenty more of the welfare state left to dismatle after all

The govt will fight this by saying that it will give our hand away to Europe, of course. They’ve been saying that up to now anyway.

One of the German papers commented (as far as I could work out) that transparency might help all sides get a good deal.

[tin foil pants] Secrecy, puts the jitters up Johnny foreigner, and so may promote a “rush for the doors” in the EU so as to get favourable deals. If you want to break up Europe, uncertainty and a lack of trust are good tools. [/tin foil pants still on]

A GE would settle it definitively as could be I suppose, does mean another 4 years of right wing rule, there’s plenty more of the welfare state left to dismatle after all

How? Both Labour and tory are pro-brexit. I guess Labour may dissappear altogether and be replaced by an anti-brexit liberal party but it’s hard to imagine they’ll displace the Tories.

Well I think that’s the point if its the defining debate of the moment,M PS might have to consider what they really stand for 🙄 Get Brexit over with, let people see the damage they’ve wrought unto themsrlves and in another 4 years time start putting things back together and consign post truth politics to that embarrassing period of 2014-2020 we can all look back on as a lesson from history

That assumes that Brexit will define this period. It may well be a side show.

48% of people who voted were remain.
The 52% were split far right and far left.
Entirely possible that a centrist pro Europe manifesto could take Westminster, but it would be starting from scratch.

Yeah, the liberals could be the big winners out of all this. Not a bad thing.

The govt will fight this by saying that it will give our hand away to Europe, of course.

You mean the fact we don’t have a hand?

Right. I’ve found my political spiritual home: It’s back to 1678 for me.

Bring on the GE.

The govt will fight this by saying that it will give our hand away to Europe, of course. They’ve been saying that up to now anyway.

If secrecy is genuinely an issue (and I accept it might be for some aspects) then couldn’t the house hold secret debates?

At least that way there would be some parliamentary oversight and involvement, rather than relying May-tanian And The Three Brexiteers to come up with something sensible on their own.

All this talk of parliamentary scrutiny of the plans for brexit, there are no plans for brexit. More importantly, there can’t be any plans for brexit as we can’t negotiate until we’ve issued article 50. I’d argue we can’t even negotiate with the EU then, it’s more a case of we’ll get what we’re given, assuming that’s anything at all. It’s a complete and utter clusterf***!

“Taking back control” my arse.

So Germany and Italy hide behind their membership of the EU to trade with India without offering better freedom of movement (i.e. the EU won’t let them offer it). We leave the EU and offer more freedom of movement to India to get a trade deal… It does seem like the law of unintended consequences at its finest. Meanwhile Indian (and a whole lot of other country) business leaders would prefer us to be in the EU because it gives them a gateway into it.

And today in an interview Tim Martin aka Mr Wetherspoon and Brexit campaigner says that Britain has benefited enormously from EU migration, “not just economically but socially and culturally”. His preferred Brexit model would continue to allow anyone from current EU member states to live and work here. “If you look around the world, successful economies and countries have had gradually rising populations, and that’s needed for the UK as well.” The only change he would make to the free movement of labour would be to exclude countries who join the EU in the future.

The referendum has definitely not clarified anything… wrong questions to the wrong people at the wrong time. I always thought that noone was going to get what they wanted and that’s the only thing that’s becoming clear.

If we don’t get the bulk of our immigrants from Europe it’s pretty obvious they’ll be coming from elsewhere.

I thought the bulk of our immigrants came from outside the EU? Of course, it would be fantastic if as a result of Sexit we ended up with FoM from Europe as well as a few other places. Australia, India, Canada etc, a real step forward.

Parkrun this morning, there was a haggle of brexiters screech bollox about “what did we vote for ” etc I did a pb just getting away from them.

The only thing we’ve learnt from this shambles is that people cant be trusted to make decent decisions .

And today in an interview Tim Martin aka Mr Wetherspoon and Brexit campaigner says that Britain has benefited enormously from EU migration, “not just economically but socially and culturally”. His preferred Brexit model would continue to allow anyone from current EU member states to live and work here. “If you look around the world, successful economies and countries have had gradually rising populations, and that’s needed for the UK as well.” The only change he would make to the free movement of labour would be to exclude countries who join the EU in the future.

This is the bit that gets me. There are so many different definitions of brexit that no one really knows what it is, but we’re supposed to believe that it’s better than remaining.
How can we have been so stupid as to vote overwhelmingly for a change into the unknown?

I thought the bulk of our immigrants came from outside the EU? Of course, it would be fantastic if as a result of Sexit we ended up with FoM from Europe as well as a few other places. Australia, India, Canada etc, a real step forward.

Yeah, it’s about equal. Won’t be without freedom of movement though.

Yes, it would be great to see more freedom of movement. All the racists would find it easier to move to Australia so everyone wins.

All this talk of parliamentary scrutiny of the plans for brexit, there are no plans for brexit. More importantly, there can’t be any plans for brexit as we can’t negotiate until we’ve issued article 50.

We can’t negotiate, but it would be a bit embarrassing if we showed up for the first day of post-Article 50 negotiations and the EU said “Okay let’s hear your terms” and we replied “Sorry we haven’t decided yet. We were waiting for Article 50”

So ahead of that day we need to make plans, decide on negotiating goals, figure out what we want and what we can offer, start figuring out how on earth we untangle all the legal bit, etc etc and my view is that parliament should be involved in all of that as the result will impact all of us.

Parkrun this morning, there was a haggle of brexiters screech bollox about “what did we vote for “

You could have doubled your PB by shouting “If you don’t know then maybe you shouldn’t have voted”

We can’t negotiate, but it would be a bit embarrassing if we showed up for the first day of post-Article 50 negotiations and the EU said “Okay let’s hear your terms” and we replied “Sorry we haven’t decided yet. We were waiting for Article 50”

Plans?
Do we want immigration?
Is it acceptable to pay for access?
What is the budget for compensation – ie can we keep writing the blank nissan cheques?
What are the red lines we cannot cross?

This is the bit that gets me. There are so many different definitions of brexit that no one really knows what it is, but we’re supposed to believe that ….

….parliament is going to be able to agree and ratify on our negotiating position. What in earth are we going to debate? Just pass the bloody Act and get on with it.

What in earth are we going to debate? Just pass the bloody Act and get on with it.

THM, so you want to go for the blank cheque option?
Personally I’d like to see the entire process fail and blow up in the faces of the idiots.

I’d also assume Liz Truss has her phone off somebody might want to pop round and wake her up
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-37883576
There was a nice campaign asking for the Mail etc. to be up for contempt

I think that it would be in our economic interest if Brexshit failed but not our political interests. But there is an equal lack of clarity on both sides at the moment. When asked remainers have no consensus and at times no idea what they want from the government or what needs to be debated.

IMO we have a technical ruling here, but this should not be used to delay or obstruct the process. We had a referendum and we all knew that a potential outcome was a hard Brexshit, it is disingenuous of any of us disappointed ones to suggest otherwise.

Pass the bill, trigger A50 and lets get on with it. The genie can’t be put back in the bottle.

I think that it would be in our economic interest if Brexshit failed but not our political interests.

i would actually say politically it is in out interests for it to fail. The root of most of the UKs issues have been westminster and not brussels but it has just been very easy to blame them.

If the politicians in the UK can’t negotiate a deal with Brussels when they keep telling everyone we have the upper hand maybe people will start to understand that the UK is not the world, that the empire has gone, that westminster is incompetent. People might also learn that actions have consequences.

But there is no negotiating the terms of us leaving. Article 50 states that we are leaving in a full hard brexit.

The terms we are talking about are the terms for a trade deal effectively, that’s going to take more than 2 years to do it properly. It certainly isn’t in the EUs interest to do it quickly, they’ll draw it out and make it obvious to all their current members that they are in charge.

We think we have a choice! We think we have taken back control! Oh how the EU laughed….

. Article 50 states that we are leaving in a full hard Brexit

Where does it state that?

Why would it be in the interests of other EU states to delay the process. Their recent comments suggest very much the opposite,

Where does it state that?

I think it’s the bit where UK Plc wants starter, 3 sides and 4 bottles of exceptional wine and the other 27 are having bread & water. When it comes to splitting the bill it’s going to get ugly and when they say no the UK gets hard brexit

Remain was (or should have been) the choice of the racist.

😆 Love it.

Where does it state that?

Paragraph 3

The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period.

We have 2 years to plead with the EU, or its hard brexit. If they don’t want to be nice (why would they after all the recent f*ckwittery?!) we leave with no agreement on a future relationship ie hard brexit.

If they don’t want to be nice (why would they after all the recent f*ckwittery?!) we leave with no agreement on a future relationship ie hard brexit.

Or negotiation 101, only negotiate from a position of power, deal not good enough? Wait till the 2 years expires and add 20% in your favour

Sorry neb, but I think that you are mistaken. The Artcile says nothing about the nature of the exit. And the two years are not inflexible. So there is no hard exit sword waiting over us. It is a possibility of course, but that is different and we know that.

We had 3 choices:

1, Stay as we were, with option of changing things from inside the EU.

2, Soft brexit of some kind, that can only be less favourable than what we have now, ie all the bad bits and less of the good bits. Less impact to the economy, we can claim we’ve left the EU, but we relinquish all the control we had.

3, Hard brexit, really bad for economy in the short / medium term, tough times, but at some point it might be better, or not, no one knows.

Why the **** did we choose option 2 or 3?! I honestly still cannot fathom the thought process that made option 1 the least appealing.

And the two years are not inflexible.

Double negative?? At the end of 2 years there is a vote it’s up to the EU I think to go on? Why would they? It’s a much better negotiation when the UK is screwed – why try too hard when you know you have a better hand coming.
For Movember https://au.movember.com/mospace/13392380 Much appreciated

Agreed but that doesn’t change matters, Athe majority voted against us and our beliefs.

The two years can been extended y mutual agreement. Given that is process if a lose:lose, I ouwld expect both parties to attempt to minimise their losses. Not point being more of an arse than you need to be.

THM it wouldn’t be the first time I’ve been mistaken! Happy to be corrected.

http://www.lisbon-treaty.org/wcm/the-lisbon-treaty/treaty-on-European-union-and-comments/title-6-final-provisions/137-article-50.html

I understand we can discuss extending the time frame and withdrawal agreement, but it all defaults to 2 years and hard brexit if we can’t work out an agreement. So really, we’re in the hands of those people who’ve had to put up with Nigel Farage for the last 7 years. How nice will they be whilst trying to discourage other members from doing the same thing we’ve just done?

Given that is process if a lose:lose

It’s the uncertainty that’s the lose:lose. I can’t see an extension to brexit happening.

Equally I can’t see a soft brexit satisfying those that voted for it. So I think hard brexit it is. Probably after 2 futile years of Boris on his knees begging for something that looks like a ‘better deal than we have now’.

Ok, so Brexit it is.

What’s the likely position of the UK in March 2019?

I’ll start:
– no specific trade deals with anyone
– gdp at 2% less than now
– inflation of +2% for the next 2 years, so already we’re 4-5% poorer (excluding pensioners as they’ve the ‘lock-in’)
– no agreements for those without the ability to get a UK passport to stay
– no agreement for those (now) UK passport holders who live elsewhere in the UK to stay there
– ability to decide which non-UK EU citizens can come here to live/work
– an unelected PM

Anymore?

Optimist

Anymore

Lord Farage 😯