Never has the phrase “cutting your nose of, to spite your face” rung so true as it does now.

I can’t think of a more British characteristic.

I can’t think of a more British characteristic.

other than losing at international football, you’re right 😆

Are you talking about rUK there Mikey? 😉

How about getting on with using the significant devolved powers that you have now? How about access of the less privileged to education and health services.

You mean like using those powers to prevent tuition fees and prescription charges?

. I wish we couod just get out immediateiy and get on with the job in hand of building the future. However thats not how its going to be. I voted Leave for a brighter future whuch I think more people will see very clearly in a few years time.

So lads, pick up the tools, today we are building a brighter future any questions?
What does that look like?
Do we have the right tools to do it?
Do we have any plans?
Do we know what we are doing?
What is a brighter future?
What are the foundations of this brighter future going to be made of?
And firstly what are we going to bulldoze our way through to make it?

I can’t be bothered to find the leave director vs commons select committee again where he said of course it’s lies otherwise nobody would do it.

Are you talking about rUK there Mikey?

Sorry, ENGLISH trait 😆

Reality versus rhetoric Graham. Enlighten us about the access (real not theoretical) to tertiary education in Scotland. What has ACTUALLY happened, not what the SNP would like you to think what’s happened?

@mikey Scotland voted for Remain for many complex reasons imho. It is not my view they voted Remain because they think the EU itself is a good idea.

If SNP believed so much in the EU they would have been willing to dicsuss thenpossibility of adopting the euro ?

Scottish SNP voters got the message that voting Remain was a clear (the only ?) route to another referendum should the UK vote Leave – free option
Many Scots (SNP) like the fact that Westmister is subservient to the EU Commission as such they are strongly in favour

Immigration. Its been a major issue (top 3) for 10-15 years, academics admitted they coach politicans to say atuff like “yes we understand its a real issue for you” but people have seen they’ve actually done nothing. As such when it came to the referendum Remain had zero credibility on the issue

What is the “major issue” with immigration that people speak of? It seems more like a massively confused issue for a lot of voters, which conveniently masks other issues more than anything. What realistic changes could be implemented to satisfy those who see immigration as a “major issue” and what more credibility do Leave have (genuine questions)?

As I challenged before – would there have been a second referendum if the better together predictions came true?

Who knows?

Similarly if the EU turned around tomorrow and said “We don’t want you to leave. We’ll give you all those concessions you wanted after all” then don’t you think our Brexit position would be reconsidered?

Brexit is 100% happening @mike, it will be done and dusted prior to the next GE in 2020 (imo)

It is not my view they voted Remain because they think the EU itself is a good idea.

So you go around accusing Remainers of belittling Brexit voters and yet you are quite willing to do the same about those who voted to remain. Talk about hypocrisy.

What realistic changes could be implemented to satisfy those who see immigration as a “major issue”?

[video]http://youtu.be/n5D2NRYKSaE[/video]

Reality versus rhetoric Graham. Enlighten us about the access (real not theoretical) to tertiary education in Scotland. What has ACTUALLY happened, not what the SNP would like you to think what’s happened?

Eh? Are you suggesting the tuition fees and prescription charges are not reality? Because I’m pretty sure they are.

As for access to tertiary education, you might enjoy this article:

Scotland is the best educated country in Europe, according to a report released by the Office for National Statistics.

It says that nearly 45 per cent of people in Scotland aged between 25 and 64 have had some kind of tertiary education – including university degrees and further education — ahead of Ireland, Luxembourg and Finland, which were the only other countries to get more than 40 per cent.

“In terms of the proportion of the population going into higher and tertiary education, Scotland actually has just about the highest in the world,” ONS chief economic adviser Joe Grice told ITV News

— http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/scotland-the-best-educated-country-in-europe-claims-ons-report-9497645.html

Interesting Graham but not really answering the question – at least from a LW interest in accessibility

The gap in university participation between young people from the most and least advantaged areas is higher in Scotland than in the other home nations

Although

although it has closed more quickly than elsewhere. 

Grant you that, but….in the socialist utopia of SNP Scotland…

Scottish 18 year olds from the most advantaged areas are still more than four times more likely to go straight to university than those from the least advantaged areas.  In England, those from the most advantaged areas are 2.4 times as likely to go to university as those from the least, and three times as likely in Wales and Northern Ireland.

Plus…

Academically selective Scottish universities are at least as socially selective as similar types of institution in other parts of the UK. Students from managerial and professional backgrounds (NS-SEC 1-3) are over-represented in highly selective universities in both Scotland and England, and this gap has not narrowed between 1996 and 2014.

Reality not rhetoric

Brexit is 100% happening

Then politicians are even worse than the electorate.

The tyranny of stupidity – discuss.

What exactly do you think led to this sistuation

Actually was that poes law in action?

@mikey Scotland voted for Remain for many complex reasons imho. It is not my view they voted Remain because they think the EU itself is a good idea.

Jambyland gets weirder by the day.]
You must be trolling as that is just nuts

Brexit is 100% happening @mike, it will be done and dusted prior to the next GE in 2020 (imo)

It the most likely but its by no means a certainty and i would be very surprised if any leader wanted to make the GE also a referendum on the negotiations which are highly unlikely to lead to all the BS that was promised to voters.

I think its more likely it will be after unless she triggers Article 50 soon ish

The tyranny of stupidity – discuss.

It’s that or a dictatorship.

Surely if we follow the example of the Leave campaign, getting on with it, means turning our back on the whole thing, realising that it was a huge mistake. In the meantime jobs will be lost, less income for UK government, more cuts to services and more misery for the people already struggling.

teamhurtmore – Member

although it has closed more quickly than elsewhere.

Which is how you measure success. You know this perfectly well… Scotland started from behind but the progress we’ve made in closing that gap is a success not a criticism. (of course, it’s not all due to the SNP or even the Scottish Government, it’s a long term success story)

Also, comparisons with the rest of the UK are generally skewed because of Scotland’s greater use of college-university articulation. This is touched on here:

“Scottish 18 year olds from the most advantaged areas are still more than four times more likely to go straight to university than those from the least advantaged areas.”

but the significance of “straight to university” is misunderstood.

A huge proportion of articulating and associate students- those not going straight to university but via college- are from disadvantaged backgrounds- it’s a route to university that’s proved hugely effective for widening access but it’s ignored outright when you choose to only look at “straight to university”. The method of comparison favours one system over the other and ironically penalises the more effective method.

You also need to be careful of stats here because if you compare university numbers rather than higher education numbers, you miss out students who’re in the college phase of an associate or similar degree program. 2-2 students are essentially underrepresented by 50% in this way (they’re only counted in the last 2 years of 4), but they just degree level students approaching their degree from a different angle. Again these numbers include a much higher quantity of MD20 and 40 students so undercounting them skews things further. As a rule of thumb, this alone equates to a designed-in 10% under-representation of students from MD20 households. Kids don’t stop being important just because they didn’t go straight to uni.

It gets much harder to compare graduations and grades which is a shame because that would be a far more valuable statistic- we know that academic flexibility and funding for MD20 students is a good way to get them into university, but not necessarily a good way to get them a degree. Whereas articulation and similar routes improve outcomes not just entrants- as an MD20 student, statistically you’re better to go to college then university than you are to go directly to university and so a huge amount of effort is invested there (roughly a 50% increase in the last 5 years). It doesn’t show up as well in some stats, but that’s OK because the point isn’t to do well at stats.

Not being funny but this is something we’ve talked about before and I keep having to explain the same things. Scotland and the RUK have different education systems so simplistic comparisons are sketchy. And unfortunately many of the simplistic comparisons skew things in the same direction and under-represent or entirely disregard some of our most effective methods, because they’re not simple. Perfect example, having multiple routes into university is a great thing but your quote about “straight to university” manages to turn it into a criticism. Our students wouldn’t be well served by changing that just to make the stats look nicer.

(aside; I’ve talked a lot about college here; the first person to come out with the “college places are falling in Scotland” line is getting a chinese burn. This is a long post already but if your understanding of the numbers is that bad, please inform yourself first… And if you do understand the numbers but want to misrepresent them, then bugger off, Willie Rennie)

less income for UK government, more cuts to services

Don’t worry, we can just borrow money and spend our way out of the problem – Keynesian economics, innit?

Actually think Jamby’s on to something there. Anecdotally, there was a lot of messaging on fb in the run-up to the EU referendum about the possibility of a second indyref in the event of Scotland voting to stay in in the event of Brexit. Whether it’s enough to explain a 15% swing from the rest of the UK I don’t know, but plenty of the 45 never gave up the fight! I don’t really think the Scots are inherently any more pro-European than, say, the Welsh, but I think the SNP tap into the anti-establishment mood and blend it with nationalism/latent anti-English sentiment, which is why they’re so popular.

Time to get on with life and deal with the hand that has been played.

I live in a democracy, and will call for, and campaign for, and vote for, change, as I see fit.

That “change” is now either to change path, and stay in the EU, or to get some kind of (poorer) EEA type partnership to keep access to our local international market, and to try and keep borders open for people to work and live where they want.

Either way, I accept that “most” people have voted for less open borders, less cooperation, but that doesn’t mean I need to just shut up and sit back.

People keep voting for governments that propose privatisation of infrastructure, social housing, essential functions of state like the land registry, but that doesn’t mean that I have to quietly “deal with the hand that was played.” In a democracy you can argue for, and try to acheive, change for the better, not just accept the current path most recently voted for. Keep the ideas and views flowing, don’t give in.

You live in the world as it is AND you argue and vote to improve it.

I think now is the time for a serious constitutional rethink on the future of the UK be that a federal system or independence for the home nations. I would be more than happy to see the UK as a union consigned to the history books – its day is over and done.

There was an element of wanting to “kick the South” in the North of the country who feel Remain was a London centered benefit

I think if you look at the results map that’s a bit simplistic. Manchester Liverpool and Newcastle are all pretty far North. It seems to me that (generalisation here) cosmopolitan areas (which tend to be more multi cultural than rural areas whilst still managing to be reasonably affluent) were more likely to vote remain. Poorer suburban areas may have a similar ethnic mix but with non of the affluence and they tended to vote leave.

As a Mod Studies teacher,that was a good summary of how the gap has closed NW,thanks. THM,any questions,or would you like to compliment the fantastic work done by the Scottish Government( and schools and other agencies) in closing the gap?

Glitchy McBump

@slowoldman that’s what the R4 piece said and also some of my friends from the North (who voted Remain) said they thought people there had voted Leave at least in part to “spite” London/The City and Cameron

My part of the world. Good article from the LRB by Dawn Carter – sleeping in bus shelters; welcome to the post Brexit future.

——————————————————————————–

Dawn Foster

An Oxfam staffer offered to pick me up from Cardiff Central. The bus service is so depleted and irregular in the Dulais Valley in South Wales that it’s pointless trying to use it for short trips. For people in Banwen, jobs are few and far between, and the lack of public transport doesn’t help. I heard of one case in which Amazon was offering a day’s work on zero-hours contracts at one of its nearby warehouses. They only let you know on the day itself whether or not you’re needed, but the text message they send out arrives too late for you to get the first bus. Rather than risk losing the work, several locals slept in a bus shelter the night before on the off-chance they would be needed.

Outside London, Wales has the highest relative poverty rate anywhere in the UK: one in four adults and one in three children are living below the breadline. Disability rates are alarmingly high, especially in the valleys, down in part to the number of people previously engaged in physically stressful manual work, but there are also high rates of depression. Wales needs infrastructure, and the jobs that would follow. The EU has poured a sizeable sum into Welsh development in the past few decades. Yet in the referendum 52.5 per cent of Welsh voters chose Leave.

In Newport, my home town, Ukip came second in the 2015 general election. I left in 2006, and remember hearing locals grumble back then that Labour thought the seat too safe to be worth their attention. In 2010, the Labour vote dropped by 6.5 per cent in Wales. The Blair years had been positive for Wales at first, but poverty rates remained stubborn, and the jobs that did materialise were often low paid or didn’t last – outsourced to India, like the evening call-centre job I had during my A-Levels. When the coalition government undertook its programme of cuts, benefit sanctions and the bedroom tax fell especially hard on Wales, which has a surplus of family homes and relatively few small dwellings. Jessica Morden, the MP for Newport East, conducted research showing that 51 per cent of people who weren’t in arrears before the bedroom tax was levied, were six months later. Yet many Labour MPs remained reluctant to come out against austerity.

The many people in Wales who have spoken to me see that their own lives are getting harder, and that their children’s future is bleak. They’ve had Labour MPs for decades, under Labour governments and Tory governments, but nothing very much has happened to change their lives or bring jobs. When Tata Steel announced potential job losses in Port Talbot, it merely felt like a continuation of the story that began with the closing of the mines, and the repeated downsizing and mothballing of the steelworks in Newport. Ukip do especially well in Wales because they are seen as anti-establishment. Nigel Farage might have gone to Dulwich College, but he didn’t go to university, and presents himself very differently from the Oxbridge set. Direct democracy offers the opportunity of a protest vote for the disgruntled, especially in the safe seats of Wales: voting to leave was a chance to be heard for once, to kick back at Westminster and the vast majority of Welsh MPs who voted to remain in the EU. And it worked: Wales was heard. And its economic future has been scuppered.

Our new PM has given the three Brexit facing jobs in cabinet to Boris,Davies and Fox all strong leave supporters and as some one printed out the gap between ability and will is huge for these three (who all have egos to feed) it is obvious that the PM has chucked the ball back to those who had left the field? So when the three muppeteers have to give into free movement to get a trade and reciprocal rights deal it will be for them to explain themselves to their electorate, the simple fact that these three accepted these jobs indicates how ****ing dumb they are

Interesting poll (always taken with a pinch of salt) published by the Independent. Australian trade approach covered in many papers now too. We won’t be agreeing freedom of movement for international trade and nor should we with Europe. I am happy with no trade deal with Europe if that requires freedom of movement or any budget contribution at all. They should pay us.

I am happy with no trade deal with Europe if that requires freedom of movement or any budget contribution at all. They should pay us

How can that ever happen you faithfully and honestly told us throughout the campaign they needed us more than we need them and they wont do that

Has reality hit home yet or is just creeping past the threshold of your lies optimism?

Australian trade approach covered in many papers now too.

To add Australia started negotiations with the EU back in November on a trade deal. We will be at least 2 years behind. Great idea from a PM with a majority of 1 and need for some confidence in what’s going on.

Mr Turnbull said he was keen to take advantage of Britain’s exit from the European Union.

Acknowledged the improvement for the low base already duckie.

However, I will reject the triumphalist crowing about superior access to education until they facts justify it though. Quiet a way to go yet before reality approached rhetoric – there’s a trend here…. 😉

#snpavoidrealityifyoucan

@mike behind the EU thats a laugh. 27 member states with vested interests, took Canada 8 years to plough through the bureaucracy. If there is a will I am certain UK/Aus can agree something in less than 12 months.

Happy both ways Junky, free trade with no freedom of movemnet or budget contribution or no trade deal and wto tarifs just like everyone else. We should not sign any deal involving making a payment or freedom of movement.

PMSL Jamby….
It just took 10 years to agree one with China, by the time the UK starts the EU will be 3 years into the deal, the UK economy then may well look less of a priority then. We also change governments every 3 years and prime ministers last about 18 months. Seriously good luck with that. Remember we need to exit the EU first… Also remember that politicians say things for their own reasons.

Im sure the trade deal with China will involve swallowing as much cheap steel as they can throw at us – as said of the US, China will fax us their terms and we will sign at the bottom and fax back. Bye bye Port Talbot. Jambalya never ever did answer the question as to how many jobs he would be happy to lose pursuant to this folly – all the jobs at the steel works in PT for a start- Jambalaya you must be jumping for joy.

also the flip flopping between trade deals are unimportant and nothing to worry about while celebrating the vaguest sniff of the possibility of maybe talking about doing one is making me smile a bit.

Again the simple bit perhaps written mischievously or not as to why people will be in the front of a queue to do deals when the UK finally leaves

Mr Turnbull said he was keen to take advantage of Britain’s exit from the European Union.

Happy both ways Junky

Problem is that is not what you said before the vote hence why I posted

We should not sign any deal involving making a payment or freedom of movement.

then we wont sign any deal as both of thise are non negotiable again a point all knew but you insisted we could deal with them as we had the stringest position

FFS is there no leave voter still saying what they said before they won

Surely not all of you are lying shysters?

Happy both ways Junky, free trade with no freedom of movemnet or budget contribution or no trade deal and wto tarifs just like everyone else. We should not sign any deal involving making a payment or freedom of movement.

This freedom of movement issue. The referendum was about remaining in or leaving the EU. The question didn’t mention freedom of movement. We can still leave, so respecting the wishes of the 52%, but keep freedom of movement.

Is it the case that every out voter, the entire 52%, wanted to end freedom of movement? Assuming that all the remain voters were happy to accept ongoing freedom of movement, it would only take a small percentage of the leave vote to have not chosen to vote leave for reasons other than ending FoM, before we have a majority of voters either in favour of or ambivalent to FoM. If this logic is followed we can see that the politicians interpreting the motives behind the votes could easily feel that they have a mandate to allow continued FoM.

Now you might say this is all conjecture or total rubbish. Maybe. But it shows that the isn’t much to go on or guide the brexit process.