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EU Referendum – are you in or out?
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outofbreathFree Member
“You mean we’d be paying more for everything we buy, apart from orange and hope bits? But wait they’re made from aluminium which we… Ah. Sounds great!”
*Everything* we buy? Really? Nobody in Britain buys anything from outside the EU?
Average tariff is 3pc, we’d cope.
hot_fiatFull MemberBut they have added value now, at the price they are now. Making them more expensive just makes things less affordable, so we buy less. We import aluminium ingots from Sweden now at some price per tonne and turn them mainly into swarf and shiny things. Adding 9% to the raw material price helps nobody, except the exchequer. And even he’s not that much better off as the vat revenue falls through the floor.
hot_fiatFull MemberYes everything we buy, because everything we buy at some point, needs fuel to move it around or process it. Unless we suddenly find a way to convert Brent crude into heavy crude suitable for making petrol, diesel and heavy diesel, instead of the plastic and fertiliser it usually goes off to make.
Edit: it makes good petrol, but naff diesel.
outofbreathFree MemberI might be misreading this but looks like aluminium is tariff free for import from almost everywhere and it’s inevitable wed start on the standard EU tariff rate ‘cos there’d be no time to legislate for anything else:
https://www.gov.uk/trade-tariff/commodities/7601202010#import
GrahamSFull MemberLots of good stats on UK trade figures here by the way:
http://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/nationalaccounts/balanceofpayments/bulletins/uktrade/may2016It will be interesting to see how these change in the future.
outofbreathFree MemberIn fact, on reflection, I reckon tariffs on raw raw materials are unlikely to be a problem. Hard to see why a UK Govt would want to tax imports of raw materials – they’d want manufacturers to have cheap materials. The kind of things they’d be looking to discourage would be car imports (which the EU already does) and stuff we produce here (Steel!).
We can be sure we’d start with the CCT and tweak it for our own purposes. For instance, do we have a wine export industry to protect? No? In which case we can remove the large CCT import tariff on wine.
All academic ‘cos I don’t think we’re leaving, but interesting none the less.
outofbreathFree MemberBut they have added value now, at the price they are now. Making them more expensive just makes things less affordable, so we buy less. We import aluminium ingots from Sweden now at some price per tonne and turn them mainly into swarf and shiny things. Adding 9% to the raw material price helps nobody, except the exchequer. And even he’s not that much better off as the vat revenue falls through the floor.
Where is that 9pc coming from? Why would a UK govt want to put a tariff on Aluminium? Even the EU doesn’t and it sounds like the EU does produce some Aluminium so they’d have more reason to than the Uk.
Yes everything we buy, because everything we buy at some point, needs fuel to move it around or process it. Unless we suddenly find a way to convert Brent crude into heavy crude suitable for making petrol, diesel and heavy diesel, instead of the plastic and fertiliser it usually goes off to make.
You’re seriously claiming we import our Diesel Tariff Free & from the EU? Tax is a MASSIVE portion of the price of Diesel.
jambalayaFree MemberGlad I’m not an exporting farmer or fisherman.
@kelvin farmers and fisherman where pro-Leave quite substantially so I understand. Do you really think they don’t fully understand the EU and its subsidies and trade barriers and thought about all of that before voting. As for “exporting” well our domestic market is easily able to support our farmers and 80% of the fish caught in our waters are caught by EU boats. Fishermen would be perfectly happy with export tarifs on fish as the Spanish etc boats can’t easily catch those fish anywhere else.
We do not have to accept a free-trade deal of the type we currently have. We can negotiate something more specific to our needs or have none. The vast majoriity of the world’s trade is under WTO rules of which the EU is a member and we will be as an independent nation. The US, China etc do huge amounts of business with no trade deal. Germany, France and Eastern Europe do huge amounts of business with Russia likewise with no deal.
kimbersFull MemberIts hilarious
May has brilliantly thrown all the responsibility for the impossible negotiations at the feet of Johnson, Fox and Davies (Gove just considered too duplicitous even for a brexiter!)Davies has already he said he wants us out by xmas 2018
as a pragmatic remainer, she knows that those 3 dont have a hope of delivering all the bullshit they promised.
what does she really think about Borris..
“Boris negotiated in Europe. I seem to remember last time he did a deal with the Germans, he came back with three nearly-new water cannon”.
molgripsFree Member80% of the fish caught in our waters are caught by EU boats.
Are UK boats not going to other EU countries’ waters to fish then? If not, why not?
Tom_W1987Free MemberI’m starting to become rather fond of Theresa May, if she is actually as scheming as I’m starting to suspect…
Game of Thrones and The West Wing have nothing on this.
Maybe this is good for the UK, this kind of high drama is surely going to increase peoples interest in politics – is it not?
igmFull MemberKimbers – are you thinking this is starting to look like May is stitching up the quit squad? Because the thought hasn’t crossed my mind. No,no,no, not at all.
My suspicion with May is that emotionally she wants to leave Europe, but she is more ruled by her head than her heart.
We’ll see.
outofbreathFree MemberIts hilarious
May has brilliantly thrown all the responsibility for the impossible negotiations at the feet of Johnson, Fox and Davies (Gove just considered too duplicitous even for a brexiter!)Hilarious indeed.
And IDS was an the telly trying to put the responsibility for delivering “Brexit” on May’s lap. Strictly speaking correct, but nobody will see it that way and it was pitiful watching him try to deflect responsibility. IMHO the three Brexiteers are going to fail to ‘leave’, and take the blame. If they work it out and make a success of it, May will be taking the credit.
kimbersFull MemberOOOh and Andea Loathsome now has to tell farmers they are going to loose their subsidies
igmFull MemberOf course. Missed that.
I did wonder why she’d got that brief.
Best tell thebees the sound he can hear is laughter not crying.
slowoldmanFull MemberAre UK boats not going to other EU countries’ waters to fish then? If not, why not?
Cos our waters are best innit?
CloverFull MemberThanks for your views and wow, those stats. Gosh I love stats.
Anyway, I’ve been looking into the whole farming issue and apparently Northern Ireland alone exports £1 billion food to the EU. If you look at Defra stats “Northern Ireland’s food and drink export trade with the EU brings in over £1bn to the economy. Meat exports account for over a quarter of this export value, at £280m, with dairy and eggs a close second at £240m.” That must be quite important for a bit of the economy which was rather held back until the peace process took effect.
Fascinating. The whole UK food and farming industry is worth a tidy £27 billion to the economy, and we export £18 billion. Go us. Just to quote from Defra “Of the UK’s top 20 export markets for food and drink products, £9.37 billion goes to EU countries and £4.33bn goes to non-EU countries.”
So anyway, if/when we become stand alone WTO members, they won’t let us subsidise our farmers (and export) so what do we do? Pesky rules. Stop subsidising farmers or take the inevitable tariffs on cheddar? Or whatever.
GrahamSFull MemberFor the panel’s consideration: ”Why Did People Vote Leave?” on The Briefing Room (Radio 4).
Give it 5 minutes and try not to make yourself too hoarse!
kelvinFull Member@kelvin farmers and fisherman where pro-Leave quite substantially so I understand. Do you really think they don’t fully understand the EU and its subsidies and trade barriers and thought about all of that before voting.
Yes, I think they don’t fully understand…
A) how many of their problems are down to UK government decisions, not EU directives
B) how leaving the EU doesn’t isolate us from decisions made by governments of other countries
C) the links between subsidy rules and trade barriersFishermen would be perfectly happy with export tarifs on fish as the Spanish etc boats can’t easily catch those fish anywhere else.
Um, are you referring to foreign boats operating under British quotas that were sold to them after privatisation? Or foreign boats accessing our waters under international agreements that don’t end when we leave the EU? Either way, if they land in their own ports, they’ll take the fish tariff free… Unlike our own fisherman who rely heavily on selling into other EU countries.
jambalayaFree MemberI do love the Remainers attempts to twist stuff
David Davies is a long standing eurosceptic who campaigned for Leave. I am sure he’s delighted with the role. He was also favourite to win the leadership before Cameron exploded onto the scene.
Liam Fox will focus on International Trade, ie not the EU. Perfect, full time role negotiating for Britain and lining up the great deals an unwieldy 27 member EU cannot deliver
Boris Johnson, Foreign Secretary focuing on international relations again with a bias for outside the EU
Overall is May who knows her Premiership will be judged on how she delivers Brexit, she is very much in charge and responsible.
outofbreathFree Memberthey won’t let us subsidise our farmers
I missed that, can non-EU countries not export produce from subsidised farming into the EU?
This article implies we an subsidise out farmers, but it might be wrong:
http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/02/how-brexit-would-affect-british-farmers/
It also contains the snippet that we pay more into the CAP than we get out:
we pay £6 billion a year into the CAP, but our farmers get only £3 billion back. British farmers are effectively subsidising their competitors
In other news, google suggests egg Tariffs into the EU are high. India and Ukraine seem to manage to export into the EU, but I’d guess the UK might struggle. So AFAICT egg exporters would lose out. (But I’ve no idea how much margin there is in eggs.)
jambalayaFree MemberYes, I think they don’t fully understand…
I think they understand far better than any of us.
As I understand it you cannot just catch fish and just pay a tariff.
kimbersFull Memberjambalaya – Member
I do love the Remainers attempts to twist stuff.
outofbreathFree MemberYes, I think they don’t fully understand…
Evidence of that? I’d have thought Farmers and Fishermen would have a detailed understanding of all this, the only farmer I know knows it inside out – it’s his livelihood. (Mind you, I have no idea how he voted.)
outofbreathFree MemberI am sure he’s delighted with the role.
Maybe Davis is.
In contrast Boris’s attitude since the vote has seemed to me to be one of serious backtracking. If he was relishing delivering “Brexit” he hid it well.
teamhurtmoreFree MemberJambas, mon Amis, you are surpassing yourself. Even Hannan has given up pretending about this shit now, You guys won, you don’t need to make it up any more. It’s ok…..
Le Bojo got a less than cordial reaction to his facetious ending to his speech at the July 14 dinner tonight.
jambalayaFree MemberOf course we can subsise our Farmers, the EU does exactly that already. We can do the same outside the EU
We import 60% of our food, there is no need to export anything at all.
ShackletonFull MemberWe import 60% of our food, there is no need to export anything at all.
You are aware that most of what we can grow in this country wouldn’t allow for a balanced diet? We have to export some of what we grow because it can’t all be consumed in this country. And we can’t grow more (or any) of what we need without major infrastructure investment and centralized control of farming to ensure we have what we need for the whole population (ie. outside of market forces). Unlikely to go down all with the tory crowd is it?
outofbreathFree Member. And we can’t grow more (or any) of what we need without major infrastructure investment and centralized control of farming to ensure we have what we need for the whole population
If the EU can use tariffs and subsidies to influence what gets produced by farmers the UK can just as easily. If the EU can manage without centralized control of farming, so could the UK.
KlunkFree MemberMaybe Davis is.
I think he knows it’s a poison chalice, and was straight in with “Collective Decisions” in an interview I heard earlier.
jambalayaFree MemberJambas, mon Amis, you are surpassing yourself. Even Hannan has given up pretending about this shit now, You guys won, you don’t need to make it up any more. It’s ok…..
Le Bojo got a less than cordial reaction to his facetious ending to his speech at the July 14 dinner tonight.
Hannan was always focused on democracy and global trade and less on freedom of movement. I and many others don’t agree with his Newsnight statement on freedom of movement.
French politicians who’ve had their precious EU given the two-fingered salute in sense of humour failure, no surprise there really. Anyway they needed a distraction from their president spending €120,000 per anum on a hairdresser.
jambalayaFree MemberAnd we can’t grow more (or any) of what we need without major infrastructure investment and centralized control of farming to ensure we have what we need for the whole population
WTF ! Farmers grow and rear what EU dictate via subsidies. They absolutely hate it thats why they voted Leave. We can produce much more than we do presently and we can do it more profitably. We will still import food I am sure but we’d do just fine with no distored EU “free trade”. I watched a TV report of some terrible treatment of cattle in Italy the other day, animal welfare standards are widely ignored in Europe and the rules hugely abused. The EU food passporting system was responsible for horse meat in our burgers. I’d be glad to see the back of it
outofbreathFree Member“straight in with “Collective Decisions” in an interview I heard earlier.”
😀
Love it.
teamhurtmoreFree MemberWas the eu to blame for the hairdressing bill or foreigners?
JunkyardFree MemberWe can produce much more than we do presently and we can do it more profitably. We will still import food I am sure but we’d do just fine with no distored EU “free trade”
If reality delivers on a tenth of your optimism we will all be millionaires under Brexit
We will do fine …are you not leaving now?
aracerFree MemberSo now we’re out, the rules don’t apply to us and we can ignore animal welfare standards too>?
ShackletonFull MemberIf the EU can use tariffs and subsidies to influence what gets produced by farmers the UK can just as easily. If the EU can manage without centralized control of farming, so could the UK.
Think of the variety of food that can be grown across the EU climatic range year round and compare that to the UK. We can’t even be calorific sufficient let alone nutritionally sufficient. We have no choice but to import at the moment and for the forseable future.
The subsidy system is a bit of a mess though. Although I suspect my reasons for thinking that are markedly different to the those of the right wingers.
FWIW I work at an Institute dedicated to agricultural improvement. The facts surrounding food security in the UK and wider world are truly frightening. While some of you may be experts in free market trading you know FA about food production as used to stop people starving or becoming malnourished rather than selling it for profit. The people I work with are global experts in it and they always look terrified when the topic of UK food security gets discussed.
And people illegally putting horse into the food chain were responsible for horse burgers not eu passporting. But now the gin is getting to my head so I’ll stop here.
big_n_daftFree MemberSo now we’re out, the rules don’t apply to us and we can ignore animal welfare standards too>?
or we could ban meat that doesn’t meet our welfare standards, massive benefit to UK farming
iffoverloadFree MemberHold on, who owns most of the UK electricity suppliers?
is this really OK?
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