@br – that issue is no longer relevant to me. I think Brexit is far better for the country economically, I’ve said that many times. I appreciate people here are trying to assign short term personal gain to justify my Leave vote but nothing couod be further from the truth.

@molgrips my point is the rule doesn’t apply globally, so a US asset manager can buy cheaper assets, put them into a fund then sell them to a Middle Eastern investor for example or indeed a European investor with an offshore fund. What also ridiculous is my London based competitors also swerved the rules by designating a non-EU office as their HQ. Also smaller competitors with asset under management of €250m or less can opt out ! If I may say its a perfect example of how a well intentioned objective is very poorly implemented by the EU Directive.

As I said its one example and there are many others where being outside the EU would make things more complicated.

@Larry the EU commission have had their noses put severely out of joint hence this sort of nonsense. We’ve already heard much more conciliatory remarks from Germany, France, Slovakia (EU President as of July) etc. In fact the Slovakians who are hosting the Bratislava meeting have said one key benefit is that meeting is far from Brussels interference.

Sarkozy said today the whole pf the EU should hold a referendum about its future direction – major stuff and further than Le Penn who wants one on the euro. He also proposed Schengen be split into an outer and inner zone with border checks at each, basically as he (France) doesn’t trust the border control which exists (or not) at the oiter edges.

Just been chatting to my brother who lives in France and travels all over Europe. Let’s say we’ve not won any friends – basically ordinary people are echoing what the politicians are saying and there’s no mood to let us have our cake and eat it.

It’s sad, he works for train manufacturers and they’re all talking about how the Hitachi plant in the NE is in jeopardy. Hitachi bought another plant in Italy which they can use instead if we leave the EU. I guess that’s when, now.

I have been saying that practically we can only get the worst of all worlds if we leave (the Binners scenario) and it seems that we’ve got to go through an entire Tory party election, two years of Brexit negotiations followed by heaven knows how long of ‘new relations’ negotiations whilst the economy stagnates and more jobs are lost.

basically ordinary people are echoing what the politicians are saying and there’s no mood to let us have our cake and eat it.

Yes but Jamby says we can so there.

Just been chatting to my brother who lives in France and travels all over Europe. Let’s say we’ve not won any friends – basically ordinary people are echoing what the politicians are saying and there’s no mood to let us have our cake and eat it.

This echoes my view: Basically, we’ve just taken a massive dump on our own doorstep. In fact, it’s so large, we have to go out the back door, fight off the rabid pittbull called Rooney, and then clamber over all the fences of the gardens in the terrace, fighting off the Sharons and Dazzas, just to make it around to the front door so we can clear the crap we’d previously dumped there ourselves; just to make it back to the point at which we started.

We might not even get a slice of cake…

Edit: someone’s already posted it, sorry, it’s the BBC piece about how we could be in the wilderness with NO trade deals with ANY countries when we leave the EU… a position of total weakness going into trade negotiations in 3 years time. We’re talking complete shit for a decade here. Thanks a _______ lot!

Over and out…

Jamba +1

Passporting – I think once you have one European branch thats good enough for all the EU. The 50 different regulators I was referring to are all in non EU countries of course. Was solved by seperate capitalisations plus gty and each country having a CEO/CFO/Compliance Head etc – often these people had more than one job

@binners and @clover there are plenty or Eurosceptics in France, Germany, Holland etc who want the same reforms as we did and their own Referendum. As Leave have said repeatedly the Referendum delivered its result on the EU and its/Cameron’s non-deal its up to the Governemt to do the implementation. We had a Referendum not a General Election like when Foot/Labour campaigned to Leave in the 1970’s

@clover amongst my French in-laws there is a lot of surprise, concern about what it means for France’s economy (inc increased EU budget contributions), wondering what the UK knows that they don’t, thinking about a French Referendum. Remember for 6 months Schengen has been officially suspended here and when the Calais camp was bulldozed Belgium closed its border. Generally they are eurosceptic by 70/30 – the 30 are pretty far to the left 😉 There is great concern that Le Penn and FN will benefit as they are the most eurosceptic party

As Leave have said repeatedly the Referendum delivered its result on the EU and its/Cameron’s non-deal its up to the Governemt to do the implementation

Not once was that said during the campaign and its pretty poor form to wash your hands of the mess now.

It s not surprising it would be based on yet another lie though

S&P cut the rating of the EU today too btw citing declining cohesion as a factor

oh what the hell is this Tony Blair getting involved now??!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/30/tony-blair-hints-at-role-as-brexit-negotiator-in-eu-talks-that-w/

We scrapped that Trident thing didn’t we?

S&P cut the rating of the EU today too btw citing declining cohesion as a factor

Yup, we’ve screwed things up for all 28 countries, and those bordering the EU, not just ourselves.

Well done us.

Big boy pants time!

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XJwY8xgoSk[/video]

Well I can honestly say reading the last few Jamby comments his views are there with most of the out at any cost lot, almost religious in their unwavering belief that it must be better twisting evidence the suit claims etc.

S&P cut the rating of the EU today too btw citing declining cohesion as a factor

We have screwed them as well and as we continue to play games we make it worse.

It sums up a selfish generation who were handed growth, expansion and opportunity on a plate, made their money through boom after boom and have left the rest of us to deal with it.

As predicted by remain
Companies are considering their future plans
People are activating their get out plans to the EU
Investment is slowing
Grants will stop

On top of this people still defend VL for having no plan, perhaps it’s because all of their statements sounded like they did (if you didn’t scratch the surface) anyone who questioned them was attacked and put down – “We don’d need experts”

Worst of all we are probably looking at a situation where we end up with all the things VL hated but none of the things they promised.
The worst outcome for both camps.

b r – Member
That’s quite worrying.

Yes, and seems that she’s just repeating what the ‘rules’ say – so presumably this was known BEFORE Cameron even offered the referendum, even more lies?

Yes the was very well known before the referendum and I’ve mentioned it on one of posts explaining A50.

A50 is the divorce settlement if you like, nothing more. It may elude to how future negotiations may be conducted but that’s as far as it goes. It’s much more about what happens to all those British immigrants living in Spain, the EU citizens living here etc.

Only once we know the terms of the divorce can we then we look at how we live together in the future.

For Liam Fox to be all incredulous about it now is a bit embarrassing really. You’d have thought he hadn’t read the rule book or something but surely that can’t be the case…

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwqPf-8aNwo[/video]

Yup, we’ve screwed things up for all 28 countries, and those bordering the EU, not just ourselves.

if they had cut us some slack over our concerns instead of overriding our wishes all the time then things might have been different.

I know why wont they write the rules of europe for the way of the one rather than for the way of the 27 other member states …the undemocratic selfish bastards eh.
I mean why do we have to obey the rules we signed up for and the treaties we signed….whats democratic about that eh and why would they not cur us some slack and let us not honour what we had said we would…Bloody europe and ehw coming over here and sticking to their word

if they had cut us some slack over our concerns instead of overriding our wishes all the time then things might have been different.

Yes, they could have started with immigration. Dear people of the UK. We direct you to stop taking in any more of those people who are making a positive contribution to your economy. This is unfair and distorting the labour markets in the rest of Europe to your advantage. You must now limit the numbers coming in even though the demand for their labour remains strong from your businesses.

#keepjohnnyout

Sauce: @lexistwit on twitter

Yes, they could have started with immigration. Dear people of the UK. We direct you to stop taking in any more of those people who are making a positive contribution to your economy. This is unfair and distorting the labour markets in the rest of Europe to your advantage. You must now limit the numbers coming in even though the demand for their labour remains strong from your businesses.

And stop sending all the old people and criminals to us who are frankly nothing more than a drain on our resources…

if they had cut us some slack over our concerns instead of overriding our wishes all the time then things might have been different.

This. The EU took a punt on us voting Remain and lost. They are so wrapped up in their own little world they couldn’t possibly believe we might reject it.

TMH we don’t know whether they make a positive contribution as no one has shared the detailed information with us. The Government has misrepresented immigration stats and only given us the broadest brush headline stats on tax revenues. To make a proper decison we need detailed break downs by earning bands and proper costing of housing and health service provison implications. The fact they never gave us those suggests to me the results don’t look so good.

if they had cut us some slack over our concerns instead of overriding our wishes all the time then things might have been different.

So our response is to throw our toys out of the pram and ruin it for everyone “well, if we can’t have it, no one will”.

Yes they have – you just need to have a desire to look at the facts.

Alternatively some lateral thinking such as compare the growth in earnings with the timing od the accession of the latest two EU countries.. The fact that you are unlikely to show the results, suggest they don’t look too good. But happy to see any links/evidence to be proven wrong.

we don’t know whether they make a positive contribution as no one has shared the detailed information with us

Yes we do as various sources tell us its positive. the fact you choose to ignore it for your own reasons tells us more about you than the facts

The Government has misrepresented immigration stats

OH THE IRONY.
You are making claims AGAIN that are just not factually correct the figures do include this I posted them up the last three time you made the same claim about housing and health – oh and education you forgot to do this on this post for some reason, perhaps you drop the known untruth at a rate of one per month?

On this point, those who voted remain should, at the very least, concede that had we voted to stay in, the country would not be having this conversation. If remain had won, we would already have returned to pretending that everything was carrying on just fine. Those people who have been forgotten would have stayed forgotten; those communities that have been abandoned would have stayed invisible to all but those who live in them. To insist that they will now suffer most ignores the fact that unless something had changed, they were going to suffer anyway. Those on the remain side who felt they didn’t recognise their own country when they woke up on Friday morning must spare a thought for the pensioner in Redcar or Wolverhampton who has been waking up every morning for the last 30 years, watching factories close and businesses move while the council cuts back services and foreigners arrive, wondering where their world has gone to.

Gary Younge
Article Here

Well said samunkin, completely agree (I voted remain)

and foreigners arrive,

😯

Nothing new there especially in Wolverhampton and nothing to do with the EU, but carry on – bloody foreigners….

Junkyard – lazarus

Yes we do as various sources tell us its positive.

Various sources state that the fiscal impact is small in either direction, and most use a static approach which will heavily weight the evidence towards the positive.
There are so many factors involved, including huge assumptions and predictions about the future that anyone who offers a certain opinion in either direction is probably not worth listening to.
Not that this should be a surprise to anyone that has actually read any of the studies…

http://www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/briefings/fiscal-impact-immigration-uk

the fact you choose to ignore it for your own reasons tells us more about you than the facts

Mmmmm, sweet, sweet IRONY for breakfast. 😆

Oh no, the bitter aftertaste of having defended Jamba by proxy.
Bleurgh! 😡

Man with one arm cuts of remaining arm, because “how could things get any worse?”
Briefly feels that the world is now paying him attention.
Roll on a few years… being totally ignored again, and, what do you know, things are worse with no arms.
Who’d have thought it?
Probably the fault of the scaremongers who warned him not to cut of that arm.
They didn’t do enough to help him because they were bitter.
Or perhaps it was the fault of the foreigners not yet “sent home”.

if they had cut us some slack over our concerns instead of overriding our wishes all the time then things might

No point having a common market in goods and capital, but not workers. Workers are THE MOST IMPORTANT part of the economy, and it is the flexibility for workers to move to where they are most needed that allows companies and countries to specialise and grow. Those thinking the EU are just being “awkward” about something that they see as seperate to trade just don’t get it. People moving to pursue careers isn’t a side effect, or the “price” of a free market, it is an essential cornerstone of if.

Of course, the EU had offered to let us make things difficult for low paid migrant workers by withholding in work benefits, and even worse for a migrants who lost their jobs. So, yes, they did listen, they just weren’t prepared to tear down the right for workers to move… as that would cripple the economy and remove an essential element of the whole idea of the EU.

wondering where their world has gone to.

Well as part of the ignored 48, I’m wondering where my country has gone to.

A tolerant country now seems to spend more time justifying why an MP was murdered (seriously look at the stuff that is flying about) than confronting the racists and their sympathisers than created the situation where that happened. We tolerated Farage claiming victory “without a single bullet being fired” – tell that to Jo Cox – oh, you can’t.
A country where it is suddenly OK to abuse people because they are Polish or Ukrainian – we were so fast to try to close the borders to Poles when they were flying with the RAF (though we were pretty quick to try and deport them after the war was over).

This was a victory for racism. It will also be bad for the economy (which rarely helps with racial tension). Even Jamba agrees it will be bad in the short to medium term; ill happily agree that the industry he describes himself as part of will make money out of this long term, though the rest of the UK won’t see any of it.

@igm financial services pay a lot of the bills for UK, the country as a whole sees a very large amount of that as London/SE is a major net contributer to the UK. It was a Remain argument we needed to protect that.

I see the racism issue the other way round, when you have a crazy policy like free movement of Labour between countries of vastly differing economic wealth it is going to stoke resentment. Look at the attitudes and bitterness which exists within our nation with the North / South divide. Managed gradual migration allows a society to adapt and even then that is challenging.

sbob its a very good linkPDF here Thanks. Its true its more complicated than I stated but the only consistent negative reports comes from the right wing think tank/pressure group migration watch and they are as neutral on this issue are UKIP. Its not surprising they find it negative.
It also worth noting that they all find non EU migration to be CONSIDERABLY more negative[ or less positive]. So the stuff we control is worse than the stuff we dont control. That is an amusing irony.
I shall turn the hyperbole and certainty down to a reasonable level[ as caveats were needed]…much as it grates to accept that , its a fair point you make that it is not as simplistic or as clear cut as I said and your board point is true

We can both share the bitter taste:wink:

However my broad point is true that it is broadly positive and i think jamby is clutching at methodological straws for political reasons.

To insist that they will now suffer most ignores the fact that unless something had changed, they were going to suffer anyway.

No it does not. Austerity and neoliberal global capitalism has hurt the poorest/working class most. they just voted for even more of that.

spare a thought for the pensioner in Redcar or Wolverhampton who has been waking up every morning for the last 30 years, watching factories close and businesses move while the council cuts back services and foreigners arrive, wondering where their world has gone to.

True but to blame the EU for that rather than Tory policies is false. That vote did not stop that happening it just made it more likely,. Now they can watch the foreign pwned firms pull out and even more factores close as immigration continues unabated but with more red tape.

I get peoples concerns what i dont get is how they think this addressed them.

Politely old people will always look at life and think its not like when i was a kid- time stand still for no person. We allways miss what we had and dislike change to some degree.
I dont like the fact my kids dont play out as much as i did and prefer youtube and Playstations – like i would have ignored them at their age eh. It has always been thus sine we had the written word

“The children now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise.”

? Socrates

I see the racism issue the other way round, when you have a crazy policy like free movement of Labour between countries of vastly differing economic wealth it is going to stoke resentment

Those people who have been forgotten would have stayed forgotten; those communities that have been abandoned would have stayed invisible to all but those who live in them.

Those ‘invisible’ areas that were receiving millions of pounds of EU funding?
I know that’s a fairly glib reply but I’m not sure the argument that everyone had forgotten about them entirely holds up.
It might be a different story from now on though.

yes that is true the EU were helping them out and still they blamed them for it all

It really was turkeys voting for XMas

if they think tories are going to get all interventionist in the market to protect people rather than serve business they are in for some very very disappointing times.

I see the racism issue the other way round, when you have a crazy policy like free movement of Labour between countries of vastly differing economic wealth it is going to stoke resentment

It might be true but it isn’t right (the highlighted resentment bit) and that’s what needs to be addressed.

How far should that go. No migration into London? Don’t want those people from the smelly deprived North moving down to London to take the well paid city jobs away from the indigenous London types, do we?

Those people who have been forgotten would have stayed forgotten; those communities that have been abandoned would have stayed invisible to all but those who live in them. To insist that they will now suffer most ignores the fact that unless something had changed, they were going to suffer anyway.

There are levels of suffering. The status quo is that they were suffering, yet receiving sizeable development funds from the EU, and benefitted somewhat from the greater opportunities for business (and thus employers) that being a member of the EU brought. Now they suffer, but receive none of the above. There are already many real reports of plans to move businesses (and thus employment) to a country remaining inside the EU.

You need to have been taking a very special type of Jambydrug to see that as an improvement.

I wonder if Manchester is holding a Christmas Market this year?

Jamba – ‘Tis true that the London area punches above its weight economically – about 12.5% of the UK population provides about 20% of GDP as I recall. But then Scotland also produces a higher GDP per capita than the UK average – make of that what you will.
I suspect you need to come down from your ivory tower though – even I (in my slightly smaller ivory tower) can see the rise in racism that accompanied the referendum campaign and the spike that has followed the result. BNP have been leafleting EU types round here again – I didn’t know they still had any real presence any more and that sort of thing hasn’t happened here for a long time. Adults shouting at school kids to go home (no I don’t mean sending them back to their house and no those adults probably didn’t stop to ask where they were born). Death threats to the kids of the local (to where I work) MP.

Now to be fair I blame a recession followed by a recovery that was seen only to help the wealthy (look at wage growth) for most of the issue. But I can’t see quitting Europe helping that.

I’m sure you’ll be ok though Jamba. As will I more than likely. Not sure about my children though.