Switzerland is not in the EEA.  Schengen is about free movement of people not goods.  The Swiss model is a valid one for the UK to look at.  Why do you think it can’t work?#

Sorry youre correct there but they are in the Single Market is that what you are suggesting we do?  thats a red line & means giving up sovereignity to some evil dominant germans or unelected comissioners or some such twaddle

again you mention usisng swiss border as a model…. see schengen

just the usual brexiter contradictions & BS, you also still reckon its ‘indisputible’ that food will be cheaper under WTO?

Still waiting for an answer on why it is wrong to not want to live in a multicultural society

Sigh. I’ll bite… it’s wrong because

99.9% of the fears are unfounded

most of those fears are driven by the media rather than actual real life experiences

living in a multi cultural area has no tangible negative impact on your life (as someone who lives in a hugely multicultural area)

those who dislike those of different cultures are typically so insular that they have no idea what those other cultures around them actually involve

in reality, dislike of multiculturalism is simply a dislike of brown/yellow/whatever people. It’s purely skin colour driven. For example, I have a friend who one night who announced he hated “****”. When pressed, this hatred extended to pretty much everyone of Indian sub-continent origin, not just those from Pakistan, and when pressed further he admitted he actually never meets or interacts with anyone from the Indian subcontinent because he lives in a small Scottish village that’s exclusively white

ive yet to hear a single convincing argument from anyone who lives in a truly multicultural area about how that multiculturalism has made their life worse

I really dont know how you lot can be arsed to respond to dickens (a play on Dickensian aspiration for the workhouse?)

Like every single brexiteer i have personally interacted with it is always the same bollocks…

They have no answers, no plan, no idea and couldnt export a sandwich to a starving man.

I am sick of the absolute shite spewed by people who dont even know what WTO stands for let alone how tariffs actually work.

Cheaper food? Maybe if you fancy chlorine chicken or grain fed beef? Cheaper lamb/fish well that will **** up farming and fishing.cheaper veg possibly at the expense if uk business and agriculture.

A US trade deal hell yes says Donald but you Will have to take our agricultural products.

But wait the German car industry will **** its pants eer no they have already sussed that your average uk “pretend exec” will pay 50 quid a month more on a PCP deal for that shiny bmwaudimerc, because we are a shallow bunch of *****

The EU supplies us with a whole range of goods that we do not produce or have limited capabilty including Pharma equipment, robot milking machines, bacon, machine tools, tractors etc etc etc we dont have a ****ing choice you stupid **** the EU on the other hand actually do.

The stupidity is breathtakingly impressive.

Oh and Liam Fox continues to raise the stupid bar, Chris Grayling gets “blanker” by the day, Rabb looks like he has shit his pants each time he stands next to Barnier, Farage makes Boris look honest and Steve Bannon needs to **** off home to 1950s Alabama. Arron Banks needs locking up and Corbyn needs to get a grip.

The above do not seem to have two ounces (56.69 grams) of shit for brains between them.

Just how did we arrive here?

They have no answers

100%

ive yet to hear them ever give any answer, never mind a credible answer, when asked to give one real example about how the EU has made their life worse. They simply can’t do it. It’s just platitudes and buzzwords about control etc.

Just how did we arrive here?

The will of the people.

A combination of: (arguably justified) dissatisfaction with the government’s reluctance to apply available immigration controls that most of the rest of Europe do; dissatisfaction with the government generally (most of which was scapegoated as the EU’s fault); a rose-tinted memory of a fictitious England’s (sic) past; a belief in the propaganda spun by the leave campaigns such as the NHS bus; and most of all the manipulation of the populace by a relatively small number of rich people who stand to gain vastly from us leaving.

The will of the people.

A combination of: (arguably justified) dissatisfaction with the government’s reluctance to apply available immigration controls that most of the rest of Europe do; dissatisfaction with the government generally (most of which was scapegoated as the EU’s fault); a rose-tinted memory of a fictitious England’s (sic) past; a belief in the propaganda spun by the leave campaigns such as the NHS bus; and most of all the manipulation of the populace by a relatively small number of rich people who stand to gain vastly from us leaving

The the impact of austerity is the huge driver for me. Easy to pin the blame on reduced acces to services on immigrants rather than actual cutbacks driven by austerity measures.

The will of the people.

We also have to ask how Cameron got it so wrong. I get why he called the vote, but politicians don’t tend to call for votes they actually think they’ll lose. How the hell did he misjudge it so badly. Would be interested to see pre campaigning polls vs the actual result

Yep, I would rather be British than be part of a European superstate run by unelected commissioners and be dictated to by a dominant German voice.

Well perhaps if the MEPs that the British voted to represent them turned up and had them balls to lead rather than bitch and moan then the dominant voice would be theirs.

its s but like not turning up to football practice and then screaming and crying because you are not selected for the team.

maybe they own an airfreight company

They don’t own an air freight company, far from it.. belive me ROFL!!

Cameron got it so wrong

Cameron was scared of dilution of the tory electorate . The perceived fear of loosing a few votes to UKIP could have meant Labour got strong enough to threaten the tory majority. He was simply putting his party before the good of the country.

Looking back his effort was utterly fruitless, to put it politely..

Sigh. I’ll bite… it’s wrong because

99.9% of the fears are unfounded

There you go, already dismissing them as fears, unfounded, racist etc,.    Just because you think people should live in a multicultural society you instantly give a whole load of reasons why someone that doesn’t is wrong.

What if they are happy with the culture where they live and don’t want it to be different and what if there are a LOT of people who feel that?

This is one of many Brexiter’s problems with people telling them what they should feel and you can see why…

Cameron was scared of dilution of the tory electorate . The perceived fear of loosing a few votes to UKIP could have meant Labour got strong enough to threaten the tory majority. He was simply putting his party before the good of the country.

Looking back his effort was utterly fruitless, to put it politely..

Agree but what we don’t know is how it would have turned out.  What if the electorate got more and more into UKIP and they did end up winning 50 seats.  That crazy terrorist sympathiser communist Corbyn gets in and we end up in what would be hell to the tories.  Is that hell any better than Brexit hell?

What if they are happy with the culture where they live and don’t want it to be different and what if there are a LOT of people who feel that?

Then frankly tough shit, move to somewhere remote as the world.is changing. It’s going to happen forcing it not too so that you can hide from it is a little bit sad and a lot like the beginnings of some really nasty conflicts.

Corbyn will probably win the next GE anyway and i will take a slightly deranged left winger over brexit as i could move to another country ( in the EU) if i choose, but now we dont have an option.

This removal of options (choices) that brexit imposes on ordinary people and make no mistake they are significant creates a no win situation.

So Cameron’s fear for the Tory party of a declining vote and loss of power to Labour has now become inevitable due to brexit as it will creatr exactly the conditions that a left wing gov. Can win power.

Rees Mogg has just said he does not want leave uk members to join the Tory party (entryism) to suppor him in a leadeship race – this is because he knows he can not win a GE with an electorate that is pissed off with Brexit and its impact.

Corbyn is many things but not stupid, he has let the gov. destroy itself but like JRM he does not want to fight a GE until thr post brexit misery has unfolded.

There is huge political advantage for the left in a hard brexit – bring me your poor snd huddled mssses and all that.

What if they are happy with the culture where they live and don’t want it to be different and what if there are a LOT of people who feel that?

Because those reasons are unfounded – I’m sorry, but they are. Over the last two years, the amount of anti-Muslim invective I’ve seen on FB posts has become horrendous – I follow West Mids Police, and there is a very clear division of reactions on their posts according to the colour of a suspect’s skin, the purely hateful nature of some of the responses is breathtaking. “Send him home!” “Hang him!” “Cut his head off!” “Put him up against the wall and blow his brains out!” (seriously), and increasingly there’s talk of no-go areas – but I tell you what, no-one can tell me where they are, because it’s just media-driven bullshit. I work all over Birmingham, and I can tell you without fear of contradiction that my welcome will be warmer in multiculural areas than it will be in, I dunno, whatever you misguidedly think of as “English” areas. We as a nation are cultural slags – multiculturalism is spread throughout our lives already, we’ve borrowed and stolen language, food, tradition, even people for centuries. So I don’t know what utopian, monocultural pipedream you’re after, but it doesn’t exist and never has.

ive yet to hear them ever give any answer, never mind a credible answer, when asked to give one real example about how the EU has made their life worse.

Totally agree. I never (knowingly) had many Leave friends, but not one of them will debate it any more. The question I have asked over and over has been “what are you looking forward to most about leaving”, and none of them has ever given me a reply.

Then frankly tough shit, move to somewhere remote as the <span class=”skimlinks-unlinked”>world.is</span> changing.

Nice.  You know you are sounding like a Brexiter there, tough shit you lost the vote, why not move to somewhere else if you don’t like Brexit Britain.

Same stance with the country/world become more right wing – tough shit move to a left wing country the world is changing

You are all failing to see things from others viewpoint and again this is one of the main causes for greater division and ultimately the protest vote side of Brexit.

Corbyn is many things but not stupid, he has let the gov. destroy itself but like JRM he does not want to fight a GE until thr post brexit misery has unfolded.

And there you have our current political system in a nutshell. Both sides seek power at all cost, even if it’s to the detriment of the country as a whole.

You are all failing to see things from others viewpoint and again this is one of the main causes for greater division and ultimately the protest vote side of Brexit.

Or accepting that the world is changing, if you want to stop it try walking down to the coast and stopping the tide coming in. When you got that sorted…

Heard this morning that the ‘government’ are issuing ‘guidelines’ for ‘citizens’ and businesses on how to cope with the situation if the U.K. crashes out with no deal.

Those old enough will remember the last time the government issued guidelines in the event of an emergency was when everybody was worried about nuclear war back in the 1980’s.

As I remember, the advice was more or less to get in a supply of chocolate and hide in the cupboard under the stairs…

No worries. It’s all under control.

What if they are happy with the culture where they live and don’t want it to be different and what if there are a LOT of people who feel that?

One of the biggest problems in the next 20 years or so will be inequality. Millions of Africans and Indians have realised that the whities have got the all the money and power. We face a choice here in the Western post industrial nations; give a considerable cut of our wealth to them or accept that they will come here, and make provison for them.

I get that people don’t like change, but frankly we’ve one planet, this is the future.

Heard this morning that the ‘government’ are issuing ‘guidelines’ for ‘citizens’ and businesses on how to cope with the situation if the U.K. crashes out with no deal.

Should be a good read.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45274972

So I don’t know what utopian, monocultural pipedream you’re after, but it doesn’t exist and never has.

Its the one between the 3rd September 1945 and the 28th October 1956 although in reality it didn’t really exist but that’s not important.

What if they are happy with the culture where they live and don’t want it to be different and what if there are a LOT of people who feel that?

I’m sure a lot of South Africans felt exactly that.

 You mentioned Irish, I covered the irish border in another post, this is now the third time I have been asked the question and this is the second time I have pasted my answer:

That’s not really an answer, I’m afraid.  There’s no solution in what you said.  Ok, so it’s not your job to come up with one, I understand that – but the issue is you seem to be trusting the people whose job it is when they have not done anything to suggest they deserve our trust.

I suspect you simply WANT to believe them, because you are pro-Brexit in the first place.  You are exhibiting confirmation bias.

Yep, I would rather be British than be part of a European superstate run by unelected commissioners and be dictated to by a dominant German voice.

Ok, I’m going to have to call you up on this because we’re getting to the heart of the issue.  Dickens, please give specific answers.

1) What’s wrong with Germans and why can’t they be involved in our lives?

2) What’s the difference between you having to do what a German wants (if that even happens) and a Scottish person having to do what an English person wants (this definitely happens)?

3) The EU is not undemocratic. This is spin, put out by leavers.  You have democratic representation in the EU just like you do in Westminster.  You have an unelected civil service just like the EU does.  You also have an unelected second chamber, which the EU does not have.  So the EU is in fact more democratic than the UK.

ep, I would rather be British than be part of a European superstate run by unelected commissioners and be dictated to by a dominant German voice.

Did you vote for Theresa May to be PM?

How many senior civil servants did you vote for?

Can you point to a specific regulation or law from Europe that you object to and has made your life worse which the UK government tried to oppose?

So the government advice leaflets are out. I like the style:

via the Happy Toast FB feed.

Both the EU and the UK are run by elected representatives.

Cougar – not true, the EU Comission are not elected and have a range of powers including being the only ones able to propose legislation which MEP’s cannot do.

It’s quite possible to be British and European, you know.

I know and I’m proud of being English and European.  I just don’t want to be in the EU.

Sorry youre correct there but they are in the Single Market is that what you are suggesting we do?

kimbers – Switzerlands model is unique and is not completely in the single market but accepts some ecj jurisdiction.  Norway, turkey, Ukraine, Canada, Japan etc all have their own individual deals.  We need our own unique deal that works for us.  I said the swiss customs model is one we could look at, I never said we would have the exact same deal and circumstances.

you also still reckon its ‘indisputible’ that food will be cheaper under WTO?

Nope, never said that.  I said its indisputable that we can set our tariffs on food to zero if we so wish.  I also said food is cheaper outside the EU, i didn’t say this was indisuptable as I haven’t researched and compared every single food product available but there is plenty of info out there to support that assertion.

The EU supplies us with a whole range of goods that we do not produce or have limited capabilty including Pharma equipment, robot milking machines, bacon, machine tools, tractors etc etc etc we dont have a ****ing choice you stupid **** the EU on the other hand actually do.

The stupidity is breathtakingly impressive.

Oldmanmtb – And?  Why can we not still buy this stuff from the EU?  Average tariffs range from 1.5% to 2.5% depending on which source you read.  Yes cars (10%) and bikes (14%) have high tariffs but most products do not.

Rabb looks like he has shit his pants each time he stands next to Barnier

Agreed.

Farage makes Boris look honest

Farage has been one of most consistent politicians currently in politics.  Look at is speeches from 20 years ago and compare to today.

ive yet to hear them ever give any answer, never mind a credible answer, when asked to give one real example about how the EU has made their life worse. They simply can’t do it. It’s just platitudes and buzzwords about control etc.

Boardin bob – Therein lies the issue with a lot of remainers.  They are non issues to you so by your logic they must be non issues to everyone.

most of all the manipulation of the populace by a relatively small number of rich people who stand to gain vastly from us leaving.

cougar – lots of fat cats stand to lose if immigration of low skilled workers is restricted.  Mass imigration casues low skilled wages to reduce and middle and high earners to increase.  Genuinely interested on how do you think they would profit from Brexit?

Well perhaps if the MEPs that the British voted to represent them turned up and had them balls to lead rather than bitch and moan then the dominant voice would be theirs.

Cornholio – This is part of the problem, our elected MEP’s have limited powers.

That’s not really an answer, I’m afraid.  There’s no solution in what you said.  Ok, so it’s not your job to come up with one, I understand that – but the issue is you seem to be trusting the people whose job it is when they have not done anything to suggest they deserve our trust.

molgrips – I thought it was a pretty good solution and I think has a good chance of being accepted, whats wrong with it?

1) What’s wrong with Germans and why can’t they be involved in our lives?

Absolutely nothing wrong with them.  This question from you is typical of the PC brigade where if you question someone of a minority group or group different from your own then you must be racist or have some issue with a nationality.  This is why we don’t have stop and search and is in large part why there are so many stabbings in London.  To answer your question, I like having them involved in our lives.  You would be on shaky ground to deny that Germany are the dominant member of the EU and have the greatest influence.  Quite simply I don’t want British lives to be determined by a German Government that has different goals, ideals and views than our own.

2) What’s the difference between you having to do what a German wants (if that even happens) and a Scottish person having to do what an English person wants (this definitely happens)?

Great question.  Quite right that’s exactly what happens.  Personally I think that our ideas, views and values are quite closely aligned which is why we have been together so long.  I’m pro democracy, if Scotland doesn’t like the way the UK is going then I think they should be free to leave and would support and respect their decision.

3) The EU is not undemocratic. This is spin, put out by leavers.  You have democratic representation in the EU just like you do in Westminster.  You have an unelected civil service just like the EU does.  You also have an unelected second chamber, which the EU does not have.  So the EU is in fact more democratic than the UK.

This one is even better.   The unlelected commission are the only ones that can propose laws which form the very basis of rule.  They are not responsible and unaccountable for decisions.  This law making gets done in secret.  They have an integrationist agenda and many feel they represent multinationals stifling small business with complicated regulatory frameworks.  Every time there is a vote that goes the wrong way it is re run until the ‘right’ decision is made. Presidents are voted in when there’s is the only name on the ballot paper like some third world dictatorial state.  The commission has historically been full of corrupt cronies such as the commissioner in charge of fraud that had previously been charged with fraud.  Once a law parliament has no power to change that law, the power rests solely with the commission.  The European court of justice is a kangaroo court wilfully supporting the integrationaist agenda and ignoring the rule of law when it suits them.

Its a highly undemocratic organisation gaining more and more power every day regardless of public opinion.

It should never have got to the position it has which is the failure of successive governments to tackle the problem.  Thats we we are in the situation we are in.  The best we can hope for is to be rid of its clutches and maybe one day it can be reformed but I doubt it.  Please don’t say we can’t change it if we are not in it, we haven’t been able to change it for decades, we’ve tried that.

Oldmanmtb – And?  Why can we not still buy this stuff from the EU?  Average tariffs range from 1.5% to 2.5% depending on which source you read.  Yes cars (10%) and bikes (14%) have high tariffs but most products do not.

So prices for UK consumers and business rise?

Cornholio – This is part of the problem, our elected MEP’s have limited powers.

I’m sure some of the loudest voices have no idea of the power of MEP’s because all they did was claim expenses and never show up. All the issues that are so key to them they forgot to attend debates or votes on.

Its a highly undemocratic organisation gaining more and more power every day regardless of public opinion.

Saying it again doesn’t make it true.

So prices for UK consumers and business rise?

For someone that is not talking to me mikewsmith you are remarkably chatty.  Stuff that we continue to get from the EU will rise in price yes.  Other stuff that we don’t probably won’t cancelling the other out.

I’m sure some of the loudest voices have no idea of the power of MEP’s because all they did was claim expenses and never show up. All the issues that are so key to them they forgot to attend debates or votes on.

Well having competent MEP’s is a separate discussion.  The fact is MEP’s have limited power anyway.

Saying it again doesn’t make it true.

You either believe it or you don’t.

Belief doesn’t change facts, as for whatever you think I’m doing I’ll just stick to pointing out your mistakes.

And yes products from the eu go up in price, until we sort out trade deals most other stuff does too so you just made the UK less competitive. Couple that with countries being able to add tariffs to UK goods we export it’s a double hit.

3 steps back none forward.

  Quite simply I don’t want British lives to be determined by a German Government that has different goals, ideals and views than our own.

There’s so much to pick at, but I’ll just restrict myself to this one and let everybody pile in on the rest.

Your life is ‘determined’ by other people’s goals, ideals and views? What are you, some kind of sock puppet?

I think you’ll find that Frau Merkel’s government, being a coalition, has many different ideals and views even within itself. The amazing thing is how it all hangs together without repeated attempted putsches from swivel-eyed backbenchers as happens in the Maybot’s equivalent. Unlike here, ‘Strong and stable’ seems to mean just that. They can all agree a single direction without throwing a hissy fit every five minutes. But then they are all about the goal of neighbourly cooperation, not that of acting like arses.

Given the percentage split of the original vote on Brexit, perhaps you need to think about what you mean by ‘our’.

molgrips – I thought it was a pretty good solution and I think has a good chance of being accepted, whats wrong with it?

Sorry I didn’t see a concrete plan there can you elaborate?

Quite simply I don’t want British lives to be determined by a German Government that has different goals, ideals and views than our own.

But British lives are already being determined by a British government with different goals, ideals and views to many people.  I have more in common with many Germans than I do with the UK government.  But somehow I have to accept it because they are BRITISH.  The point I am getting at is that nationalism is stupid.  For most of my life I’ve had a government that is pretty strongly opposed to everything I value, and I’m opposed to everything they value.  I don’t give a shit where they happen to have been born.  So you’ll forgive me for wanting my future to be influenced by people from countries whose values I do in fact share.

The unlelected commission are the only ones that can propose laws which form the very basis of rule.

So wait, they only propose laws?  I thought you said they made (i.e. enacted) them?  Pretty sure proposing something isn’t the same as enacting it.

One of my favourite things about the EU however is that they are supra-national.  They legislate for things like the environment and consumer or worker protection, which are important and all too easy for a short termist national government to chuck on a bonfire.  I WANT my government moderated by others, especially those from other countries as they have a different perspective on things.

Quite right that’s exactly what happens.  Personally I think that our ideas, views and values are quite closely aligned

You have to be joking.  Just out of interest, how much time have you spent living and working with other EU nationals?  Or in other EU countries?

It should never have got to the position it has which is the failure of successive governments to tackle the problem.  Thats we we are in the situation we are in.

The British political system is completely bollocksed too.  As are most.  I really don’t understand why you think you think British politicans are some shining beacon of brillance and only the dastardly EU have stopped us achieving greatness.  Our politicians are so shit that I really want the EU moderating them.  I look at the legislation and other stuff the EU creates and I keep thanking my lucky stars that we have it.  I don’t think the UK will do any better, I think they will in fact trash it.  We will lose environmental and social protection.

Environmental and workforce protection legislation costs money.  By tying neighbouring countries to trading with each other, and then forcing the legislation on them all, you are putting trading partners on the same standing.  If it weren’t for the EU, countries would be forced to cut these things to compete with each other, and the continent would be shitter as a result.  This shitness is absolutely inevitable outside the EU.

Another brexiter trope is the ECJ.

Exactly what’s wrong with having a supranational legal body independent of individual governments?

Wouldn’t you like to have a higher authority you could appeal to if your own country’s legislature was interfered with for political reasons?

What laws enforced by the European Court are you most looking forward to not following?

Cougar – not true, the EU Comission are not elected and have a range of powers including being the only ones able to propose legislation which MEP’s cannot do.

I don’t actually know whether that’s true or not so I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt.  But the key word here is propose.  Proposing something is a world apart from making or controlling laws.

The EU Commission is the equivalent of our Civil Service.  Why aren’t you objecting to them?

Genuinely interested on how do you think they would profit from Brexit?

For one thing it’s a tax dodge.  Look at Tim Martin or Aaron Banks.

Quite simply I don’t want British lives to be determined by a German Government that has different goals, ideals and views than our own.

Which German goal / ideal / view do you disagree with?

Every proposed EU law that our MEPs have voted on has gone the way we’ve voted.  Even if what you say here is true and it is those nasty Germans pulling our strings, we’ve agreed with them every time.  If that weren’t the case then you might have a good point, but we’re not getting anything imposed on us that we didn’t want.

Right – tangent:

What if there were a second vote, with the option to remain on the ballot, and it won?  What would happen on the day and the week following?

What what laws enforced by the European Court are you most looking forward to not following?

So Dom has just given a speech about what happens in the event of a No Deal Brexit

It appears that it would basically involve the instigation of new levels of bureaucracy that would make a 1970’s Labour council blush.

So much for this bonfire of red tape?

What if there were a second vote

Third vote.

Every proposed EU law that our MEPs have voted on has gone the way we’ve voted.

Not quite true.  If you’re going to bandy around absolute statements, you’re going to get pulled up if they’re not absolutely true.

https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-facts-behind-claims-uk-influence/