Viewing 40 posts - 48,481 through 48,520 (of 77,140 total)
  • EU Referendum – are you in or out?
  • molgrips
    Free Member

    However what I’ve tried to demonstrate above with the £5 billion tariffs which our EU neighbours would have to pay on our exports

    But the EU customers can shop elsewhere…

    mikewsmith
    Free Member

    Great long response, still doesn’t sort  the border though.

    We are still at the stage where a deal needs to be put to the people otherwise you could be getting none of what you wanted.

    jimster01
    Full Member

    jimster – which bit makes no sense?  Do you not see how trade can benefit developing countries?

    Unfortunately we are walking away from the biggest single trade market with the hope of setting up trade deals with developing countries.  America changes their mind when Trump changes his socks, the only probable ones listed on the International Trade website are Australia and New Zealand who have already stated they would rather set a deal up with the EU.

    As Richmtb states there are the EU Agencies to be replaced.

    Has any Brexiteer ever read Article 50?  There is no deal to be set, we leave.

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    kimbers
    Full Member

    How is Brexit specifically going to lead to less of this multiculturalism (as defined by your good self above)?

    he couldnt answer this question as ninfan, he cant answer it as dickens

    hes already reinforced that he has no clue how the WTO works, there will just be more obfuscation & trolling (he admitted that was his own primary win from Brexit)

    hes only gone all brexit crazy to distract (himself) from his KKK loving hero in the whitehouse is indisuputably going down

    dickens
    Free Member

    But the EU customers can shop elsewhere…

    molgrips – They could and they would be mad not to.  I did make a point on how we could address this:  “part of the £8 billion we will save on membership can be put towards indirectly subsidising those industries, such as the car export industry for example (directly subsiding would be against wto rules).”

    jimster01
    Full Member

    “part of the £8 billion we will save on membership can be put towards indirectly subsidising those industries, such as the car export industry for example (directly subsiding would be against wto rules).”

    Thought that was destined for the NHS

    dickens
    Free Member

    he couldnt answer this question as ninfan, he cant answer it as dickens

    I admit the multiculturalism debate has little to do with brexit and was me being mischievous (-:

    hes already reinforced that he has no clue how the WTO works, there will just be more obfuscation & trolling (he admitted that was his own primary win from Brexit)

    hes only gone all brexit crazy to distract (himself) from his KKK loving hero in the whitehouse is indisuputably going down

    Haters gonna hate…  Trump is a good debate to have though, feel free to start another thread…  Can we do Corbyn first though?

    mikewsmith
    Free Member

     “part of the £8 billion we will save on membership can be put towards indirectly subsidising those industries, such as the car export industry for example (directly subsiding would be against wto rules).”

    this 8bn, given what we are paying the EU to exit (35-40bn) so 4-5 years of that payment, the money for the NHS, the cash to set up UK versions of EU organisations, the funding for customs and immigration workers/infrastructure and dealing with job losses when does that saving go to pay for anything else?

    Haters gonna hate…  Trump is a good debate to have though, feel free to start another thread…  Can we do Corbyn first though?

    I’m amazed you didn’t see the threads

    dickens
    Free Member

    Thought that was destined for the NHS

    jimster

    How much of that £8bn goes to running admin that we will now have to run ourselves?

    molgrips – I don’t know how much the additional admin would cost, and it is a good point.  To give us an indication the whole of UK HMRC ‘only’ costs £3 billion so I’m pretty sure there would be some change to support industries affected by tariffs and the NHS.

    dickens
    Free Member

    this 8bn, given what we are paying the EU to exit (35-40bn) so 4-5 years of that payment, the money for the NHS, the cash to set up UK versions of EU organisations, the funding for customs and immigration workers/infrastructure and dealing with job losses when does that saving go to pay for anything else?

    Admittedly there won’t be much change (-:  See above point from molgrips abut the cost of admin.

    mikewsmith
    Free Member

    Admittedly there won’t be much change (-:

    No change, in fact it would take up to 10 years to pay for leaving based on our current contributions so that leaves no cash for anything in the short term without taxation increasing.

    The suns don’t add up to the UK being more competitive or prosperous at all do they?

    dickens
    Free Member

    Unfortunately we are walking away from the biggest single trade market with the hope of setting up trade deals with developing countries.  America changes their mind when Trump changes his socks, the only probable ones listed on the International Trade website are Australia and New Zealand who have already stated they would rather set a deal up with the EU.

    As Richmtb states there are the EU Agencies to be replaced.

    Has any Brexiteer ever read Article 50?  There is no deal to be set, we leave.

    Jimster – You are correct in that thew EU is the worlds biggest single trade market but you make it sound as if we can’t do trade with the EU anymore?  The average tariff in the eu is only around 2.5% so I’m sure even if we don’t get a free trade deal our exports to the eu will carry on with some help needed for industries with higher tariffs.  Then we can start to benefit from lower prices for imports from non eu countries and break into new markets with our exports as well as continuing to negotiate free trade deals.  The net result I believe will be that the UK is far better off.

    We don’t just need to trade with developing countries, nor should we.  I was just highlighting one area where we could support impoverished nations whilst getting cheaper prices because of the EU’s protectionist policies.

    Australias and New Zealand having a deal with the EU doesn’t preclude them from having a deal with us.

    I have covered the cost of admin in an earlier post.

    Yes you are correct, there is no deal [with the eu] once we leave.  Did anyone say there was?  Of course we are currently negotiating one and I would be amazed if we didn’t agree one.  There’s no way the EU would let us go without one.  Germany the boss of the EU has too much at stake.  They have borrowed billions to lend to Greece (which they are now making a nice profit on) and as we buy 15% of all cars they produce they would be very wise to make a deal with us.

    mikewsmith
    Free Member

    Perhaps Dickens you should start by reading the thread, you should find the answers to many of your questions in there.

    We have already explained the difference between an Average Tariff of 2.5% and what it means in real life.

    dickens
    Free Member

    No change, in fact it would take up to 10 years to pay for leaving based on our current contributions so that leaves no cash for anything in the short term without taxation increasing.

    The suns don’t add up to the UK being more competitive or prosperous at all do they?

    I think they do mikewsmith.

    It won’t take forever to pay off the 40 billion fee.  We (I) have established that the EU admin we have to do won’t cost 8 billion (based on the fact that the whole of the UK HMRC ‘only’ costs £3 billion)

    The NHS money is a bit of a red herring, the point is once we pay off the 40 billion there would (in mine and many other opinions) be money left over.

    The NHS does need desperately additional funding but that is a separate issue to Brexit.

    Someone will mention the drop in the pound as being a cost in the minute so I’ll just preempt that.  Many experts have said that the pound was already overvalued before the brexit decision and was due a drop.  Once the markets see a more certain future I think it will rebound wiping out any falls and then will go on to gain strength (which has both positives and negatives anyway).

    kimbers
    Full Member

    I admit the multiculturalism debate has little to do with brexit and was me being mischievous (-:

    the word you are looking for is trolling

    mikewsmith
    Free Member

    It won’t take forever to pay off the 40 billion fee.  We (I) have established that the EU admin we have to do won’t cost 8 billion (based on the fact that the whole of the UK HMRC ‘only’ costs £3 billion)

    Using the money we pay it will take 5 years, that maths is quite simple.

    Unless you have more cash from somewhere.

    Next up

    https://www.politico.eu/article/post-brexit-customs-model-would-cost-uk-business-up-to-20bn/

    The cost of doing business with no border arrangements

    kelvin
    Full Member

    I’m liking this new troll… his choice of South Africa for sourcing oranges, rather than any of the many other African counties we already import oranges from tariff free, suggests some knowledge and research, THM style, rather than naked Brexiter ranting.

    Now, oranges… has South Africa sorted its black spot problem? Standards and safety are a far bigger barrier to trade than tariffs, as we will find out if we can’t sort a trade deal with the EU, but they exist for good reasons.

    Now… SADC-EU has written into it a ramping down of some seasonal tariffs on oranges from South Africa to zero, yes? I’d rather they went straight to zero right now, rather than slowly dropped year on year, and we’re tariff free all year, but then I’m not a farmer. Should we be protecting Spanish farmers? Again, as a non-farmer I could safely say maybe not… but what about our hill farmers? Our shellfish industry?

    MrWoppit
    Free Member

    So, ninpoop – you’ve been instantly outed under your new ID as ‘dickens’ and already begun the usual bishop-bashing that you did before.

    Was it worth it?

    mikewsmith
    Free Member

    Just wait till he hits page 10 of the thread for more wacky ideas 🙂

    Unless BoJo is testing his pitch here

    dickens
    Free Member

    But the EU contains lots of the countries with the highest costs of living, so I think that particular statistic is not valid if you are trying to say that the EU is actually causing higher food prices.

    Dickens is trying to say that we should buy food from say African countries to grow their economies so they don’t suffer as their populations increase.  However I’d suggest it’s not as simple as that – if we buy all their food then they won’t be able to feed this increasing population.  Our money will push up the prices.  AFAIK this is generally what happens. Food should not be treated as a freely tradeable commodity for this reason.

    What we should be doing is investing in Africa and other developing nations to develop their economies, not simply monopolising their food market.  The fair trade movement was created for a reason.

    What will be the effect if we set zero import tariffs?  Can countries not suddenly decide to set export tariffs if they decide their own citizens need the food, thereby leaving us in the lurch?  I think international trade is a bit more complex than you realise.

    And we haven’t even talked about food miles yet.  Does it make more sense to get oranges from Spain or South Africa?

    Also on environmental lines, by encouraging a country to grow food for cash that might not be suitable, you could end up creating environmental issues.  For example, say someone discovers you can grow oranges to export to rich countries in some hot poor country by using intensive irrigation with water taken from rivers – ten years later you have a water crisis.

    Molgrips – all good points, of course we have ethics and wouldn’t want to cause the problems you describe.  But should that mean we don’t trade with developing countries?  We just need to trade responsibly.  Trade would bring massive economic benefits to these nations and their citizens.  The EU’s protectionist racket are stifling their development which I personally find appalling.

    mikewsmith
    Free Member

    The EU’s protectionist racket are stifling their development which I personally find appalling.

    Yawn, every bodies trade police is protectionist to some extent as you want stability. Put down the Trump repeat it manual (true it does sound like ninfan) and try engaging or just go back to the old username you had.

    kelvin
    Full Member

    But should that mean we don’t trade with developing countries?

    We do trade with developing counties.

    EBA and GSP absolutely rock, where developing countries aren’t in a position to sort trade deals. The EU use them to protect developing counties from the damage WTO would otherwise inflict on them. I’d hope, even after Brexit, we could/would still implement these, somehow… other things might take priority though, I fear.

    dickens
    Free Member

    Seems to be lots of magical thinking going on.

    If we could move seamlessly to WTO, and its a big if, then there are still lots of unanswered questions:

    What’s your solution for a customs border? (not N. Ireland that’s a separate issue) will Kent just be turned into a lorry park?

    If we put zero tariffs on food whats to stop our entire farming industry from being undercut?

    EU Agencies such as Euratom, Europol, EMA, EASA, etc.  Which do fairly important stuff, like keep planes in the sky, co-ordinate police to fight international criminals and ensure availability of medicines, whats the plan for replacing those? I would imagine its more than an afternoon’s work to get them set up.

    Not expecting any answers soon.

    Its like a lot of things Richmtb, its hard and seems impossible, particularly with the customs border issue, but I think we will look back and wonder what all the fuss was about.

    The customs border in switzerland (not in the customs union) has over £400 billion of goods from the EU crossing its borders and only costs £639 million to run.  Its something we just need to get good at and the Swiss model is one for us to look at.

    Yes if we put zero tarriffs on all food then its possible or even probable that our farmers may be undercut.  I didn’t actually mean we should just put zero tarriffs on all food, but we will have the choice so we can prop up uncompetitive industries if we so wish.

    The EU agencies is a good one.  Common sense needs to prevail and I think it will.  I don’t have any problem continuing to pay into some of these agencies providing we are not bound by the ecj etc.  The myth of planes being grounded has been well debunked so won’t bother going there.

    mikewsmith
    Free Member

    The EU agencies is a good one.  Common sense needs to prevail and I think it will.  I don’t have any problem continuing to pay into some of these agencies providing we are not bound by the ecj etc.  The myth of planes being grounded has been well debunked so won’t bother going there.

    Was that by magic wand waving?

    So your leave the EU plan ends up costing more than it costs to stay in with less of the benefits? Does that fit on a bus?

    dickens
    Free Member

    the word you are looking for is trolling

    Kimbers – Just for clarity, I stand by everything I said on multiculturalism and think its a debate we should be having more of in this country.  But its not a huge factor in the brexit debate and I did just throw it in there for shits ‘n giggles.

    kimbers
    Full Member

    oh look ninfans lying, again!

    The customs border in switzerland (not in the customs union) has over £400 billion of goods from the EU crossing its borders and only costs £639 million to run.  Its something we just need to get good at and the Swiss model is one for us to look at.

    switzerland are in schengen & EEA

    Yes if we put zero tarriffs on all food then its possible or even probable that our farmers may be undercut.  I didn’t actually mean we should just put zero tarriffs on all food, but we will have the choice so we can prop up uncompetitive industries if we so wish.

    you dont understand how WTO works, I thought you were going to read the links I posted, seems youll just carry on with your fantasies

    The EU agencies is a good one.  Common sense needs to prevail and I think it will.  I don’t have any problem continuing to pay into some of these agencies providing we are not bound by the ecj etc.  The myth of planes being grounded has been well debunked so won’t bother going there.

    so the brexit dividend gets ever smaller & ECJ is final arbiter for these agencies, so we will have to obey rules, no loger with UK judges on the court

    yay sovereignity

    planes- grounded? cite please

    hows trumplandia these days?

    dickens
    Free Member

    Was that by magic wand waving?

    So your leave the EU plan ends up costing more than it costs to stay in with less of the benefits? Does that fit on a bus?

    mikewsmith – we talked about the admin cost of the EU, admin wasn’t my term but when I used it I was referring to all the costs of continuing to run everything that the EU will no longer be required to.

    dickens
    Free Member

    kimbers – loving your work!    You remind me of one of those people that had a great business idea but never followed it through because instead of opportunities you only saw problems… destined for a lifetime of regret and government handouts.

    PJM1974
    Free Member

    I might have guessed, an astroturfing brexiteer with an unusually positive outlook as to trade (which doesn’t fit with the facts already posted) and who has a problem with multiculturalism.

    I’m out chaps, there’s genuinely nothing to gain with engaging with this poster.

    mikewsmith
    Free Member

    Yep so far all your ideas are costing more than membership for the best part of 10 years before we get to any pay to play trade deal.

    dickens
    Free Member

    Thanks for the contributions pjm and mikewsmith.

    kelvin
    Full Member

    “I said on multiculturalism and think its a debate we should be having more of in this country.”

    Can I keep… bagels, sushi, curry, pizza, pasta, coffee, tea… please. And Christianity, please… I’m not religious, but I feel we have benefited from having the Christians come over here and live among us.

    kelvin
    Full Member

    a great business idea but never followed it through because instead of opportunities you only saw problems…

    Businesses fail when you ignore, rather than identitify and formulate a plan to mitigate for, problems.

    kimbers
    Full Member

    <div class=”bbp-reply-author”>dickens
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    kimbers – loving your work!  You remind me of one of those people that had a great business idea but never followed it through because instead of opportunities you only saw problems… destined for a lifetime of regret and government handouts.

    </div>

    no actual response then ?  facts ever the enemy of the brexiter

    dickens
    Free Member

    The Iron lady at her best:

    dickens
    Free Member

    Yeah okay kimbers if you promise to be nice I’ll reply later.

    molgrips
    Free Member

    The customs border in switzerland (not in the customs union) has over £400 billion of goods from the EU crossing its borders and only costs £639 million to run.

    Yes, but it’s a definite border with checks and you get a chat from a border official when you cross it (or at least I did last time I drove through).  Lots of people in Northern Ireland simply will not stand for this.  Likewise, lots of other people won’t stand for a border in the Irish sea.  It’s not a technological issue we’re facing with that, it’s a political and/or social one.

    The technological possibility was raised not to police the border, but to control goods *without* having a border, so the situation is not like the Swiss one.

    But should that mean we don’t trade with developing countries?

    No, we absolutely should trade with them, but perhaps we shouldn’t buy stuff from them of which they have a limited production capacity; they need in order to survive; and they are vulnerable to supply instability.  If we were to say encourage some company to build a factory in an African country making high value goods, that helps them grow but does not risk their food supply.

    Exactly the kind of thing, incidentally, that the EU does for the poorer countries within it.

    MrWoppit
    Free Member

    dickens… Actually…

    ’dick’

    FTFY.

    DrJ
    Full Member

    Folk still rising to the bait from ninfan ….  err …. I mean dickend?

    kimbers
    Full Member

    <div class=”bbp-reply-author”>dickens
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    Yeah okay kimbers if you promise to be nice I’ll reply later.

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    its a date!

    whenever is good  dickens/ninfan/z-11/labrat, im sure you have billy goats to deal with or something

    tbf i understand that being proved wrong on trump has upset you so ill cut you some slack

Viewing 40 posts - 48,481 through 48,520 (of 77,140 total)

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