sadly either you are open to multiculturalism or not

True, and I think there are a LOT of people who are not open to it and it is a primary cause behind the Brexit result.

Are those people wrong, should they be forced to think multi-culturism is great when living with it everyday they don’t see it as great.

Makes you think.

Are those people wrong, should they be forced to think multi-culturism is great when living with it everyday they don’t see it as great.

Did those voting out live it everyday or read about it in the mail?

I think dickens said “Before we joined the EEC we had cheaper food but we ended up with higher prices thanks to the EU.”

Now I’m doing this from memory so someone may need to check this, but the percentage of the average household’s take home pay spent on food has dropped significantly.

Googling it the Independent has 33% in 1957 and 15% in 2006.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/survey-of-family-spending-charts-half-century-of-consumer-culture-775185.html%3famp

I also said that food outside the eu is cheaper

It’s not cheaper in the US, from my experience.

Anyway. Isn’t the WTO undemocratic?

Re multiculturalism: it fits in with what seems to be a common British principle, and what should be a basic human principle, which is to let other people do whatever they want in their own homes as long as it doesn’t hurt anyone.

So you should be able to speak whatever language, wear whatever clothes and watch whatever TV you like. It’s noone else’s business, is it?

Re multiculturalism: it fits in with what seems to be a common British principle, and what should be a basic human principle, which is to let other people do whatever they want in their own homes as long as it doesn’t hurt anyone.

and your white, western European christian

It’s similar in the US

Multiculturalism – try telling the Cornish they have the same culture as Cockneys. Or the Scots. Or Welsh…

The UK (clue’s in the name) has been a wonderful multicultural mongrel nation for centuries. We are in many ways the perfect Europeans. We understand how to be part of something greater than the sum of its parts.

And we happily assimilate all the best bits of culture we come into contact with. Food, music, language – you name it.

Too much power concentrated at Westminster probably hasn’t helped over the last 70 years or so, but devolution and the EU have provided two outlets to curb London centrisicity. And the Beeb starting to leave London too.

Multiculturalism is our strength and those who oppose it weaken the UK.

I also said that food outside the eu is cheaper

My time spent in Australia over Christmas and new year would suggest otherwise.

Did those voting out live it everyday or read about it in the mail?

I don’t know, do you?  Lets for the sake of argument say they are living with multiculturism everyday and they don’t like it.  Are they wrong?

 Lets for the sake of argument say they are living with multiculturism everyday and they don’t like it.  Are they wrong?

Possibly – it depends why they don’t like it.

When I hear people being loud and obnoxious in a foreign language, sometimes a part of my brain pipes up and says ‘bloody foreigners!’  But then I remind myself that the reason I’m annoyed with them is because they are loud and obnoxious, not because they are foreign.  So the bloody foreigners thought is just wrong.

People ascribe traits to entire groups to which they don’t belong on the basis of some behaviour they see.  So for example, you see some travellers fly tipping, people think ‘bloody travellers’.  When you see settled people committing a crime, they don’t think ‘bloody settled people’.  This is also wrong behaviour.  It’s logically incorrect, if nothing else.

I don’t know, do you?  Lets for the sake of argument say they are living with multiculturism everyday and they don’t like it.  Are they wrong?

There was data that showed leave and fear of immigrants/other cultures was particularly strong in areas with tiny % of non white UK born & bread so yeah we do know a bit about that.

If people don’t like it they can hold that view, if they chose to run away and hide from it then they are part of the problem.

 I don’t see that as being racist and presumably neither does angela merkel.  Maybe you’re confusing multiculturalism with multiracial (which I like).

Would you care to explain the difference, please?

Cougar – Multiracialism is about acknowledging that we are all composed of people from various races or different cultural backgrounds. Multiracialism as an ideology is one where you seek to avoid the problems associated with multiculturalism which is where different cultures live close together but live separate lives, apart from each other and apart form the mainstream.

Shouldn’t we have a referendum on whether or not we join the WTO – an unelected body over which we have no control?

scotroutes – the nation voted to leave the EU.  By default that means we are in the WTO, there are no other realistic choices.  The vote has taken place, get over it princess.

I dont celebrate birthdays and my family don’t go out to see other people at Christmas. Everyone else I know does the opposite… does this mean I am part of a separate society?

who defines the “norm” that we should be confirming to?

cornholio – fair question if a little basic.  Normal is a word with its own definition and everything (usual, typical or expected).  Hence the majority decides whats normal.  If you don’t conform to normal then maybe you should be stoned to death… okay I’m joking but I think riding a bamboo fat bike with drop bars and bent cranks isn’t going to cause any social problems.

If your going to quote stuff at least try and get the right country

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/08/17/swedish-muslim-wins-case-refusing-handshake-man-job-interview/

Though all those places that begin with S sound the same….

Is there a place for men wearing dresses talking to imaginary friends in old stone buildings while sitting in the house of lords??

mikewsmith – you got me, it was sweden that like their handshakes not switzerland.  Clearly that now undermines everything I’ve said.  Personally I’d like to abolish the house of lords but that’s a whole separate debate.

My my understanding of the wto tariffs is these are agreed for the hundreds of thousands of goods by 164 member countries. If we then choose to import beef from Australia below the tariff we can be called into a disputed by any of the 163 other countries for breaking the agreement.

once agreed we have to renegotiate with the entire WTO to change or agree specific trade agreements with individual countries. We cannot just do whatever we choose.

An example thrown up a few pages back detailed that the WTO section for metal covers 4000 odd types and the steel sub section has 3000 odd alloy designations. Obviously we want to protect what we make but also not make imports of other raw mats expensive. Trouble is so does India and China but they also want immigration deals…

Cornholio – my understanding is we set import tariffs to whatever we want subject to maximum limits (not minimum).  There’s no dispute (well ok there maybe a dispute but no legal grounds for one) , if they don’t like it they can take a running jump.  See here:  https://lawyersforbritain.org/leaving-the-eu-on-wto-terms-pulling-down-the-barriers-to-world-trade

So again the question, when did this stop being OK? 1973?

Northwin – snore.  It might be ok for you and if it is I’m very happy for you.  If you live in some areas of Blackburn or whalley range in Manchester for example where 95% of residents are asian you might feel differently.  Perhaps if your neighbours believed in stoning people to death for adultery then that would be fine too?

and to say the more multicultural places I have lived have been the best. If you don’t get that then get out and mix with other people.

mikewsmith and molgrips and igm – same reply to you above.

When I hear people being loud and obnoxious in a foreign language, sometimes a part of my brain pipes up and says ‘bloody foreigners!’  But then I remind myself that the reason I’m annoyed with them is because they are loud and obnoxious, not because they are foreign.  So the bloody foreigners thought is just wrong.

molgrips – If you think the problems with multiculturalism is just about foreigners talking loud you really need to do some research.

I suspect that our new Leaver is yet another alter ego of the same person.

We shall christen that person by putting all his user names together.

Dickfanchewmore.

It might be ok for you and if it is I’m very happy for you.  If you live in some areas of Blackburn or whalley range in Manchester for example where 95% of residents are asian you might feel differently..

Manchester is frequently held up as a beacon of how multiculturism can work and has been leading the way for a very long time due to it’s role in industry and shipping.

Still not told us which countries currently operate on WTO only though, I can think of another poster who has gone quiet that struggled with that uncomfortable fact.

zippykona unfortunately I can’t change my username but if I could then that would be it thanks.

mikewsmith – I don’t know how many countries operate on wto only.  I would like us to have many advantageous trade deals around the world but sadly we need to release ourselves from the grips of the EU mafia before that can happen.

molgrips – If you think the problems with multiculturalism is just about foreigners talking loud you really need to do some research.

No I was giving an example, not describing the entire issue in a single post.  That should have been obvious?

multiculturalism which is where different cultures live close together but live separate lives, apart from each other and apart form the mainstream.

I don’t think that’s what most people think of when they use that word.

 I would like us to have many advantageous trade deals around the world

Why, exactly?  I feel like the answer to this will bring up an important point.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41859691

<h2>Does any other country trade on WTO rules alone?</h2>
If you look at the WTO database which lists all regional trade agreements, there is nothing for Mauritania. That’s led some to suggest Mauritania is the only member to trade solely on WTO rules.

However, according to the WTO, Mauritania has joined the Economic Community of West African States, and it has preferential trade arrangements with some 20 WTO members.

There are some countries which aren’t WTO members, including Algeria, Serbia and North Korea, but the WTO says all of its members have some sort of bilateral or regional trade agreement in place.

I would like us to have many advantageous trade deals around the world but sadly we need to release ourselves from the grips of the EU mafia before that can happen.

This is the starting point you are advocating.

The EU Mafia as you describe it is one of the most powerful trading blocks in the world, that allows the members to get better collective deals with fewer concessions than smaller nations. Being smaller does not really help.

molgrips – fair enough on the talking loud, it was obvious.

If most people don’t think of that definition then I would argue they don’t understand the meaning of the word.  That doesn’t mean the word should change its definition because people haven’t bothered to read a dictionary.

Happy to be led into your cunning trap…  Surely that’s the whole point of world trade, to do business on the world stage and strike the best possible deals?

It might be ok for you and if it is I’m very happy for you.  If you live in some areas of Blackburn or whalley range in Manchester for example where 95% of residents are asian you might feel differently..

I lived in Whalley Range for years. On a street where I think we were the only ‘white’ people. I loved it. Never any mither. Everyone was really friendly. There was a real feel of a community about it – kids playing in the street etc. What was I meant to be objecting too?

It’s always the same from my observation. The people who start sentences with “I’m not racist, but…” usually live in areas with no immigrants and the only ones they encounter are the eastern Europeans serving their coffees and cleaning their cars. Yet they’re more than happy to give you chapter and verse about the problems of multiculturalism

This is the starting point you are advocating.

The EU Mafia as you describe it is one of the most powerful trading blocks in the world, that allows the members to get better collective deals with fewer concessions than smaller nations. Being smaller does not really help.

mikewsmith – we are not mauritania by any stretch of imagination.  Lets say, as remainiacs love to call it, we ‘crashed out of the eu’ and operated on wto rules.  The cost of tariffs for continuing to trade with the EU at current levels would amount to just over £5 billion.  Quite a lot but when you put it in the context that we pay £8 billion to be in the eu boys club its not such a big deal.

The EU mafia surely is a powerful trading block and protectionist racket.  Sadly most of its protectionist policies don’t really benefit the UK as a net importer.  We are better placed to to survive outside the EU than Germany for example who I believe benefits the most out of eu membership.

I genuinely believe that long term we will be considerably better off outside of the EU.

Surely that’s the whole point of world trade, to do business on the world stage and strike the best possible deals?

Obviously, starting from a weaker point is the best way to do this….Moving to a position of no trade agreements at all in place is the best first negotiation step I’ve seen since Blackadder

If people don’t like it they can hold that view

And if 52% of people don’t like it they can vote based on that view?.  You don’t have to live in a multicultural town/city to not like it.

Ever thought that people live in places that are not very multicultural because they don’t want to live in multicultural place and don’t want “their” place to change to be one.

Again, are they wrong in feeling that?

Again, are they wrong in feeling that?

Probably.

The cost of tariffs for continuing to trade with the EU at current levels would amount to just over £5 billion.  Quite a lot but when you put it in the context that we pay £8 billion to be in the eu boys club its not such a big deal.

How much would that push up the prices of good arriving in the UK? they are just a tax like VAT that the people of the UK will pay, so we need to find 5bn from our pockets.

The EU mafia surely is a powerful trading block and protectionist racket.  Sadly most of its protectionist policies don’t really benefit the UK as a net importer.

Details needed here, how is the UK being disadvantaged, lets have some specifics here

Happy to be led into your cunning trap…  Surely that’s the whole point of world trade, to do business on the world stage and strike the best possible deals?

Best in what way?  I assume you mean cheapest?  The problem with everyone aiming for the cheapest possible deal is that other issues get overlooked.  Money is not the only issue.  Look at NAFTA.  Now you’ll probably say that if free trade is bad, then why the EU?  But the EU also manages (or attempts to manage) *production* across the whole area for a variety of benefits, not just commercial. This is why the EU is not just a free trade area.

Probably.

Why?

Obviously, starting from a weaker point is the best way to do this….Moving to a position of no trade agreements at all in place is the best first negotiation step I’ve seen since Blackadder

mikewsmith – not sure I follow you?  How would it be possible to leave the EU with deals in place?

How much would that push up the prices of good arriving in the UK? they are just a tax like VAT that the people of the UK will pay, so we need to find 5bn from our pockets.

As stated several pages back, we can set our own import tariffs.  We needn’t pay more for food, we could set zero tariffs.  Generally speaking food is cheaper outside the EU than in it giving further savings.

I also think there is an ethical gain to be made here, buying food products from impoverished nations.  Take oranges for example, spain produces most of the EU’s oranges so the EU has slapped a 16% tariff on oranges bought outside the EU.  We could be buying more oranges from south africa for example, a nation that badly needs our help right now as it is on the verge of imploding into a zimbabwe style catastrophe.

Best in what way?  I assume you mean cheapest?  The problem with everyone aiming for the cheapest possible deal is that other issues get overlooked.  Money is not the only issue.  Look at NAFTA.  Now you’ll probably say that if free trade is bad, then why the EU?  But the EU also manages (or attempts to manage) production *across* the whole area for a variety of benefits, not just commercial. This is why the EU is not just a free trade area.

molgrips – I’ve kind of answered your post above.  By 2050 more than half of the worlds population will be in Africa.  There will be famines in the future that will make past ones look trivial in scale.  The EU in many cases prevents us from trading with these countries.

The cost of tariffs for continuing to trade with the EU at current levels would amount to just over £5 billion.  Quite a lot but when you put it in the context that we pay £8 billion to be in the eu boys club its not such a big deal.

How much of that 8bn is returned to the UK in the form of subsidies, rebates, grants etc.

How much of that 8bn is returned to the UK in the form of subsidies, rebates, grants etc.

None at all that is the NET amount we pay.

https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/

mikewsmith – not sure I follow you?  How would it be possible to leave the EU with deals in place?

Yes we can’t have any when we start fresh so we have no trade deals.

As stated several pages back, we can set our own import tariffs.  We needn’t pay more for food, we could set zero tariffs.  Generally speaking food is cheaper outside the EU than in it giving further savings.

Is it actually cheaper when you get it here or are you just repeating without facts. You want to raise money but not make people pay for it? You want/claim 5bn will be raised, 5bn will have to be paid.

How long does it take to negotiate trade deals?

What will you do about UK citizens in the EU?

How will you plug nursing vacancies?

How will you deal with EU citizens already here?

What is the viable solution for the Irish border?

Details needed here, how is the UK being disadvantaged, lets have some specifics here

Again how is the UK specifically being disadvantaged?

By 2050 more than half of the worlds population will be in Africa.  There will be famines in the future that will make past ones look trivial in scale.  The EU in many cases prevents us from trading with these countries.

?  This statement makes absolutely no sense…

Details needed here, how is the UK being disadvantaged, lets have some specifics here

mikewsmith – I was speaking generally rather than specifically.  The EU protectionist tariffs like I mentioned above (the example of oranges) favour those that export by putting higher tarriffs on products produced outside the EU.  I didn’t say we would be disadvantaged, what I said was other countries that produce more, benefit more than a country like ours which has a trade deficit.  Ours is a strong position to have although I don’t subscribe to some peoples view that this in any way gives us an upper hand in negotiations.  It does give us a strong hand though.

Generally speaking food is cheaper outside the EU than in it giving further savings.

But the EU contains lots of the countries with the highest costs of living, so I think that particular statistic is not valid if you are trying to say that the EU is actually causing higher food prices.

Dickens is trying to say that we should buy food from say African countries to grow their economies so they don’t suffer as their populations increase.  However I’d suggest it’s not as simple as that – if we buy all their food then they won’t be able to feed this increasing population.  Our money will push up the prices.  AFAIK this is generally what happens. Food should not be treated as a freely tradeable commodity for this reason.

What we should be doing is investing in Africa and other developing nations to develop their economies, not simply monopolising their food market.  The fair trade movement was created for a reason.

What will be the effect if we set zero import tariffs?  Can countries not suddenly decide to set export tariffs if they decide their own citizens need the food, thereby leaving us in the lurch?  I think international trade is a bit more complex than you realise.

And we haven’t even talked about food miles yet.  Does it make more sense to get oranges from Spain or South Africa?

Also on environmental lines, by encouraging a country to grow food for cash that might not be suitable, you could end up creating environmental issues.  For example, say someone discovers you can grow oranges to export to rich countries in some hot poor country by using intensive irrigation with water taken from rivers – ten years later you have a water crisis.

Quite a lot but when you put it in the context that we pay £8 billion to be in the eu boys club its not such a big deal.

How much of that £8bn goes to running admin that we will now have to run ourselves?

?  This statement makes absolutely no sense…

jimster – which bit makes no sense?  Do you not see how trade can benefit developing countries?

Seems to be lots of magical thinking going on.

If we could move seamlessly to WTO, and its a big if, then there are still lots of unanswered questions:

What’s your solution for a customs border? (not N. Ireland that’s a separate issue) will Kent just be turned into a lorry park?

If we put zero tariffs on food whats to stop our entire farming industry from being undercut?

EU Agencies such as Euratom, Europol, EMA, EASA, etc.  Which do fairly important stuff, like keep planes in the sky, co-ordinate police to fight international criminals and ensure availability of medicines, whats the plan for replacing those? I would imagine its more than an afternoon’s work to get them set up.

Not expecting any answers soon.

Cougar – Multiracialism is about acknowledging that we are all composed of people from various races or different cultural backgrounds. Multiracialism as an ideology is one where you seek to avoid the problems associated with multiculturalism which is where different cultures live close together but live separate lives, apart from each other and apart form the mainstream.

@dickens

Laudable stuff.

So, keeping it simple – just so I can keep up, see? Multiculturalism as defined above is a kind of self-inflicted apartheid? Which is a bad thing as insular attitudes can build up in groups of people who are in close proximity.

How is Brexit specifically going to lead to less of this multiculturalism (as defined by your good self above)?

Yes we can’t have any when we start fresh so we have no trade deals.

mike w smith – well thats the unfortunate situation we are in.  It would have been nice to line up trade deals whilst in the EU but EU law forbids it.  Its no reason to stay with an abusive partner just because there’s a period of upheaval.

Is it actually cheaper when you get it here or are you just repeating without facts. You want to raise money but not make people pay for it? You want/claim 5bn will be raised, 5bn will have to be paid.

I think I’ve been pretty clear.  I stated that I believe food will actually be cheaper because we can set zero tariffs on imported food if we wish and as an added bonus food is generally cheaper outside the EU.  I only mentioned the £5 billion once and this is what i said:  “Lets say, as remainiacs love to call it, we ‘crashed out of the eu’ and operated on wto rules.  The cost of tariffs for continuing to trade with the EU at current levels would amount to just over £5 billion.  Quite a lot but when you put it in the context that we pay £8 billion to be in the eu boys club its not such a big deal.”  I meant to actually say ‘import’ tariffs so if that was the confusion my apologees.

How long does it take to negotiate trade deals?

It takes time, years although I think with a strong will they can be wrapped up quickly. The exception is the EU deal could be done in 7 months I believe.  However what I’ve tried to demonstrate above with the £5 billion tariffs which our EU neighbours would have to pay on our exports, its not a huge big deal.  And part of the £8 billion we will save on membership can be put towards indirectly subsidising those industries, such as the car export industry for example (directly subsiding would be against wto rules).

What will you do about UK citizens in the EU?

How will you plug nursing vacancies?

How will you deal with EU citizens already here?

What is the viable solution for the Irish border?

Its nice that you think these are my decisions to make, if only…  I don’t have time for detail as I need to get some work done so I’ll nutshell it:

UK citizens in the EU should have the same rights as we have granted EU citizens in the UK.  Refer to the recent statement from Raab.

I don’t have a problem with immigration to plug skills shortages.  I personally think an australian style points system is appropriate.  What I do have a problem with is low skilled mass immigration which are a burden to the treasury rather than a gain and it It lowers low skilled wages and pushes up wages for the fat cats. .  As an aside I am interested to know why we can’t develop more doctors and nurses in this country.

EU citizens has already been covered by Raab which I agree with.

I’ve covered the Irish border already on here.  Heres wot i wrote:  On the Irish border, there already is a border.  Even if a more robust one was put in, I thinks there’s around 200 entry points.  Its just not realistic to put a hard border in and its unacceptable to the North and the Republic.  Technology can play a part.  Realistically 99% of goods going over the border will be a fella filling his van up with whatever is cheaper over the border.  For heavy goods that are far easier to track it shouldn’t be an issue.

I added later that Small business traffic moving goods could be permissible as part of the deal.  Think of it like when you go to the tip in your car but commercial vehicles have to pay.  An exception needs to be made because of the sensitive political situation in N Ireland.

If we put zero tariffs on food whats to stop our entire farming industry from being undercut?

Well that’s easy, just put zero tariffs on stuff we can’t grow ourselves, and big tariffs on stuff we can.  Although I don’t know how that works with out of season things like strawberries in December and so on.  Can tariffs be seasonal?