So putting the Tory Party dogma to one side

For some its investment opportunities, for others its the chance to get rid of employment protections, for some its about getting american healthcare firms that they are investors in into the NHS.

Tory Dogma viewed through the lens of a left wing view of Tory Dogma…

This sort of sums up the issues for me, Our political parties (and the people that support them) can’t help but see this through a short term partisan lens, they probably don’t even recognise it when they do it. If there’s one issue that needs to be wrestled out of the hands of the Conservative and Labour parties it’s this one.

nickc – trouble is my post is true.

Look at Mogg – moved his investment firm to dublin to take the profits when the pound falls.

Hunt – gets payoffs from a major invester in American healthcare firms

Liam fox  quoted as saying he wants to use Brexit to deregulate the labour market ie to remove worker protections

ETC ETC

Look at Mogg – moved his investment firm to dublin to take the profits when the pound falls.

<pedant>

The move wasn’t to short the £, but because:

“A number of existing and prospective clients requested domiciled access to Somerset’s products. Blah blah

</pedant>

I agree it stinks though.

I can’t wait to see Barry Brexit’s face when he’s told that he now only gets 2 weeks holiday.

nickc – trouble is my post is true.

TJ I took the trouble to already confirm that for you, if you read my post properly

Tory Dogma viewed through the lens of a left wing view of Tory Dogma…

I don’t disagree with you about the Tories, my point was that Brexit is too big a deal to be left to the likes of the political parties, Sure; the Tories will **** it up, they are your disreputable uncle who’s only in it for himself, but the Labour party are just as idiotic about it, only this time it’s your Mum, knows **** all about the world and how it works but at least has your best interests at heart, but will just wring her hands when it all goes to shit.

Brexit needs to be taken away from soundbites and posturing for the leadership of the Tory party. If there was a GE Labour might get in, but given their indecision on it, after a few months they’d be just as **** up as the Tories.

If there was a GE Labour might get in, but given their indecision on it, after a few months they’d be just as **** up as the Tories.

Im not so sure. Stamer is an infinitely better negotiator than Davis. As much as it pains me as a notional Corbyn supporter, it probably would take long for it to be made very clear to him that if he wishes to retain his new found office he goes for least impact Brexit. Else it wouldn’t be long before a large chunk of the momentum that got him leadership swallowed its own vomit, myself included, and suggests that the Blairite/Thatcherite Benn gets a stab at it. And if he offers to tear the whole thing up he’d probably get in.

And do you know what, as a died in the wool lefty, I’d accept that. There’s be a good deal more unity in the country behind Benn than Corbyn or any of the likely Tory contenders. And given the damage done over the past two years, unity is frankly more important than left/right/in/out/shake it all about hyperpartisanism.

Talking on the Gove thread about the lack of talent in the HOC right now – Starmer is one of the few I would trust to run a bath.

No way on Benn tho – his disloyalty and attacks on Corbyn rule him out for me.  He is in the wrong party.  A natural tory..  The rest of your point I agree with – just swap Starmer for Benn

No way on Benn tho – his disloyalty and attacks on Corbyn rule him out for me.

And ordinarily me too. But in this scenario I can see his oratory skills converting many. After all, Blair was a Tory too, and it didn’t stop him😂

I’d take anyone who’s electoral appeal went further than the student union

How do you both think that the Labour in-fighting that would occur in a Benn vs Corbyn fight for ownership of the Brexit procedure and ultimately the heart and leadership of the Labour party would play out in the Media/papers? And the effects that briefing and off-records chats would have?

do you think that

a) it would make what goes on now look as mild as a gentle teasing dispute over who’s paying for scones at a tea shop?

b) no, I;m sure the papers would get on side, and everything would be fine..?

It’d be as bad as the Tories. Probably worse. Jezza and all his coterie are rabidly anti-EU. Always have been. They hate it as much as IDS and Lord Snooty.

i don’t believe a word of his recent half-hearted platitudes. If he were negotiating with the EU instead of the Tory’s, we’d be right where we are now, just for different reasons

It’d be like groundhog day with different protagonists

Binners – why do you keep on talking such utter bobbins about Corbyn?

I’m not so sure. One thing Corbyn has that his right wing counterparts do not is a sense of duty to the party and its grass roots support. IBS amd snooty only care for themselves and their very rich mates.

Some of us have been paying attention to Corbyn’s voting and speaking record as regards the EU for decades. He is a hard Brexit fan. His pretence at taking the party line during the referendum fooled no one, accept those who think he can do no wrong. Note that I started voting Labour only once he became leader, as I’m close to his position on most domestic issues… but he is, and always has been, anti-EU.

Binners – why do you keep on talking such utter bobbins about Corbyn?

Correct me if I’m wrong, but the present labour party are still polling behind the most shambolic, inept government I’ve ever seen in my lifetime, because the leader is so weak and ineffective he can’t even land a blow on this shower

He’s absolutely ****ing hopeless!!! The country has never been in more need of an effective oposition, and instead they’ve got a leadership that are just enablers for the far right nut jobs of the Tory party

It boils my ****ing piss!!!! Because its the working classes that are going to have their incomes and rights decimated by Brexit, and the labour party under Corbyn is utterly complicit in this whole thing

The reason IMO mfor Corbyns poor polling is the infighting in the labour party and the breifing against him by lkabour MPs giving the right wing press ammo.  Its discgusting IMO how much the right wi9ng of the labolur party would rather be out of office than support corbyn.

He is too damaged by them now I agree.  However its the right wing of the labour parties fault not corbyns – and his appeal actually goes a long way.

Corbyn is railroading a party that is against a hard Brexit into supporting one. Nothing to do with “loyalty to the grassroots”… quite the opposite. And he is giving this government an easy ride… he wants them to take the blame for any short term damage (he thinks that it will be only short term, I do not), but wants to be outside EEA or any other close relationship structure with our neighbours, just as the government do. Labour MPs that point this out are harangued by the true believers.

infighting in the labour party… blah, blah, blah….

Change the record FFS. Maybe 2 years ago you’d have had a point? But now…? Seriously? Absolutely nobody is briefing against Jezza other than himself.

The reason why the Labour party are absolutely nowhere is because Corbyn and his anti-EU acolytes are so completely ****ing useless. Full stop!

Never mind what he’s saying (in his half-arsed manner), look at what he’s doing!  On every significant issue over Brexit – at every critical juncture – He’s whipping his party to nod through a hard Brexit against its wishes. He’s like a guerrilla wing of the far right. He is fully supportive of their aims, hence the total absence of any real opposition

I think even most of the Momentum half-wits have now figured this one out

But Vote Leave won Fair & Square

with such a leaky ship cant wait to see the emails where VL discuss leaking this report at midnight after the England victory

The reason IMO mfor Corbyns poor polling is the infighting in the labour party and the breifing against him by lkabour MPs giving the right wing press ammo. Its discgusting IMO how much the right wi9ng of the labolur party would rather be out of office than support corbyn.
He is too damaged by them now I agree. However its the right wing of the labour parties fault not corbyns – and his appeal actually goes a long way.

Yeah, just like all those pesky liberals in the Republican party who are wrecking Trumps chance at greatness.

Lol.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/shops-will-raise-prices-as-brexit-hits-profits-nqg9flxkh

With the government in total disarray over Brexit as the deadline looms, Jeremy at PMQ’s is going for the jugular

He’s asking her about improvements to bus services

Jesus ****ing wept!!!!

Given that most of us will be lucky to afford a bus ticket at the end of this, I think it’s quite a pertinent question

And the last to PMQs he has gone on about brexit and nailed May to the mast.

Binners – I really question you on this when you support Burnham who disgracefully played the race card to get elected mayer and a man who has no principles and no ideas.

Nothing Corbyn can do will please you – are you sure you really are a labour supporter not a shy tory?  😉

Critizing Corbyn’s hard Brexit stance (which is pretty much inline with that of the non-ERG Tories, with wriggle room to allow for the occasional “jobs first” sound bite) does not make Binners, or anyone, a “shy Tory”. Stop drinking up the propaganda.

Yeah, the irony of being accused of being a Tory by a Corbyn supporter, when Jezza’s position on the only real issue of the day is directly in line with such tub-thumping, working class, socialist heroes as Ian Duncan Smith, John Redwood, Boris Johnson, David Davis, Liam Fox, Bill Cash  and Michael Gove?

Wut?

Sarcasm flying everywhere.  😉  “shy tory” was a tease.

I really do not know where this idea Corbyn wants a hard brexit comes from.  Its not in line with anything I have ever seen from him in recent years.  His position is not mine no – but he is able to take a compromise and move along with the evidence.

I stopped voting Labour in the Blair / Murphy years duye to the fact they no longer represented my sort of labour parrty

Corbyn is not really who I would want either but he is a damn sight closer to the labour party I have supported for 40 years than any of the other contenders like Benn

Theme tune to TJs ideal Labour party

<span style=”font-size: 0.8rem;”>https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=U06jlgpMtQs</span&gt;

Rayban – why don’t you just bore off?  You really are not funny and ignoring your posts does not stop you making personal attacks on me.  You have been warned and banned for the personal attacks.  Please stop.

Bloomington heck JLR not holding back

They’ve already spent £10m on brexit contingency planning

& Reckon that they will have to ditch £80bn UK investment plan in case of hard brexit

https://www.ft.com/content/d077afaa-7f8a-11e8-bc55-50daf11b720d

Bloomington heck JLR not holding back

They’ve already spent £10m on brexit contingency planning

& Reckon that they will have to ditch £80bn investment plan in case of hard brexit

Gloves are off, government has been listening to the they need us more than we need them lot too much and now the grown ups are back in the room.

JLR

BMW

Airbus

Rolls Royce

It’s a big hole in the UK exchequer

Robert Peston on Facebook. Very interesting. Basically the idea of a bespoke deal isn’t remotely possible. It’ll be a Norway esque model or hard brexit. Unless common sense prevails and the whole thing is scrapped

This is one of the more important notes I’ve written recently, because it contains what well-placed sources tell me are the main elements of the Prime Minister’s Brexit plan – which will be put to her cabinet for approval on Friday.

I would characterise the kernel of what she wants as the softest possible Brexit, subject to driving only the odd coach over her self-imposed red lines, as opposed to the full coach and horses.

And I will start with my habitual apology: some of what follows is arcane, technical and – yes – a bit boring. But it matters.

Let’s start with the PM’s putative third way on a customs arrangement with the EU, which has been billed by her Downing Street officials as an almalgam of the best bits of the two precursor plans, the New Customs Partnership (NCP) and Maximum Facilitation (Max Fac).

Last night I described this supposed third way as largely the NCP rebranded – which prompted howls of outrage from one Downing Street official.

But I stand by what I said. Because the new proposal of the PM and her officials, led on this by Olly Robbins, retains the NCP’s most controversial element, namely that the UK would at its borders collect duties on imports at the rate of the European Union’s common customs tariff.

The UK would in that sense be the EU’s tax collector. And although the UK would have the right to negotiate trade agreements with third countries where tariffs could be different from the EU’s or zero, companies in the UK importing from those countries would have to claim back the difference from Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs (HMRC), much in the way they currently claim or pay different VAT rates when trading with the EU.

The reason why, from a bureaucratic if not economic viewpoint, the UK would in effect remain in the EU’s customs union is that there is no other way of avoiding border checks between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland. Or at least that is what the PM and her officials now believe.

To be clear, this would be an asymmetric agreement with the EU: Theresa May may ask EU governments to collect customs duties on behalf of the UK from companies based in their respective countries, but she knows they will respond with a decisive no, nay, never.

Which may seem unfair. But actually this would only be a problem if there were an imminent prospect of a future British government wanting to impose higher tariffs than EU ones. And certainly the political climate now – outside of Trumpian America – is for lower tariffs.

Just to be clear, there will be some of Max Fac in this new synthesised customs plan: IT and camera technology employed to reduce the bureaucracy and frictions of cross-border trade.

But the True Brexiters won’t be wholly relaxed (ahem) by what they are likely to see as NCP by another name.

And there’s more, of course.

Because frictionless trade and an open border between Northern Ireland and the Republic cannot just be achieved by aligning customs collection rates.

It also requires alignment of product standards, for goods and agricultural products.

Or at least that is what the PM will insist on with her Cabinet colleagues.

And that alignment would in effect replicate membership of the single market for goods and agri-foods.

Which would see European standards and law continuing, ad infinitum, to hold sway over British manufacturing and food production – though the ultimate court of appeal in commercial disputes. would, in May’s and Robbins’s formulation, be an extra-territorial international court, like the European Free Trade Area’s EFTA court.

Given that the ECJ would still have a locus below this final adjudicating tribunal, I assume the True Brexiters such as Jacob Rees-Mogg will be unamused.

But maybe they would take comfort that a British parliament could always withdraw from the trading arrangement, if there were concerns that the rest of the EU was discriminating against the UK.

At this juncture you are saying, I am sure, “oi! what about services?” – given that the UK is largely a service economy (80% of our economic output, our GDP, is generated by service businesses).

Well there is an aspiration to maximise access to the EU’s giant market for services by aligning professional and quality standards, for example.

But equally there is a pragmatic recognition that maximising such access would require minimising restrictions on EU citizens moving to the UK to live and work; there is a calculation by Robbins and his officials that, among the EU’s so-called four freedoms, free movement of services and free movement of people are pragmatically connected.

And since the PM has pledged to impose new controls on the free movement of people from the rest of the EU, she accepts that the EU will insist on some new restrictions on the sale of British services in its marketplace.

But May and her ministers are hopeful there is a deal to be done here, a trade-off: preferential rights offered to EU citizens to live and work in the UK, compared to the rights available to citizens from the rest of the world, for improved market access in Europe for British service companies.

We’ll see.

In the round, you may conclude – as I have – that Theresa May wants a future commercial arrangement with the EU that is not as deep and intimate as Norway’s, but is not a million miles from Switzerland’s.

From which there follow two crucial if obvious questions.

Will the EU – its chief negotiator Michel Barnier and the 27 government heads – bite or balk?

If Barnier’s word was gospel on this, the plan would be dead at birth, because it does put a wedge between the four freedoms: May wants complete freedom of movement for goods (and capital), but restrictions on people.

May’s bet is that his employers, the 27 prime ministers and presidents, will be less dogmatic.

But what about her own cabinet and parliamentary party?

If they are in the True Brexit camp, like Davis, Johnson, Fox, and Gove, won’t they cry “infamy, infamy, etc”, threaten resignation and launch a coup to oust the PM?

Well, what the PM will say to them is that her deal, she believes, is the only one around that stands even the faintest chance of being agreed in Brussels (though, to repeat, you would be right to be sceptical of that).

Which carries a momentous implication – namely that if they reject her vision of Brexit, the default option of exiting the EU without a deal would become the sole option.

And although many True Brexiters would say “hip hip for that”, if a no-deal Brexit were to become the only game in town, there would be a revolt of MPs and Lords against the executive, against the PM and her government.

Parliament would – almost certainly – reject exiting the EU without a deal and could, probably would, vote for the UK to join the European Economic Area and remain in the EU’s single market.

That would, for most True Brexiters, turn the UK into what they call a “vassal state”.

So come Friday, Johnson, Davis, Fox and Gove face an agonising choice: agree to a Brexit plan from May which will stick in their craws like a rotting mackerel head; or reject it and take the risk that what follows is almost their worst nightmare, not a clean no-deal Brexit, but the detested “Brino”, or Brexit in name only.

Of course there is always a chance that if they shout and scream loudly enough, May will buckle – and will allow the cabinet to agree on obfuscation for the White Paper on her Brexit negotiating position, to be published 12 July, rather than a clear and unambiguous plan to be put to the EU, of the sort I’ve described.

If that were to happen, her authority would be undermined, perhaps fatally. And the possibility of there being no deal with the EU, on divorce and future relationship, would become a serious, potentially catastrophic probability.

And in related news… https://news.sky.com/story/vote-leave-whistleblower-shahmir-sanni-says-democracy-has-been-tainted-11426450

Vote Leave tries to get retaliation in first 🙂

Full report could make for interesting reading – no doubt the Electoral Commission will be the next to labelled enemies of the people.

If Pestons anything like right, Friday is going to be shit sandwich day- the only question is who is going to be eating it.

I predict more can kicking, not resigning ministers … somehow … they’ll kick the can past the Leave date if they can find a way …

Well its sleepover on Friday and England match on Sat so the timings good to drop the bad news 🙂

I hope we are all going to boycott Jaguar from now on what with their surrender monkey scare tactics.

I hope we are all going to boycott Jaguar from now on what with their surrender monkey scare tactics.

The baby range rover is already cancelled, I’ll be having a stern word with the driver about the next car he gets to.

MPs should boycott ther Jags too and go for something built by a proper British car manufacturer making British cars in Britain, just like they did in the good old days.  So, Morgans all round!