thats why May didnt release the white paper, as she promised a few wekks ago, shed have out before this summit

she knew it would be bog roll before the talks were even over

EU negotiators have already rejected Theresa May's Brexit plan for a single market for goods @adampayne26 tells Sky News in Brussels. https://t.co/okN61WoRVA pic.twitter.com/ZF1iK3IlOE

— Adam Bienkov (@AdamBienkov) June 29, 2018

Theresa May’s Brexit plan for a single market for goods

Sounds a lot like the “compromise” that one of our missing Leave apologists and myself thrashed out a few months ago…  will be interested to see where this goes now… I fear the “they need us more than we need them” downright lie will become a joke… unfortunately for our manufacturers and retailers.

Its all a set up

May knows she cant negotiate a deal & keep the Tory brexiters happy & theyll happily bring down the government rather than concede

so she’ll pretend to be outraged

the papers will blame EU intransigence

& the brexies will all join Cameron in Nice, with his trotters up , while the country goes to shit.

Has May yet put forward a single solitary proposal that the EU didn’t immediately say ‘non’ to, and packed her straight off back for another away day at Chequers with the kids?

got to love the delusional UK > EU mind set of the Gov/Brexies/Papers

Just found a source for this and it seems you’re right.

Dyer’s reasoning?  He was sick of politicians talking all the time and wanted to make them *do* something instead.

Hmm.

Sounds a lot like the “compromise” that one of our missing Leave apologists and myself thrashed out a few months ago…  will be interested to see where this goes now… I fear the “they need us more than we need them” downright lie will become a joke… unfortunately for our manufacturers and retailers.

You mean breaking up the pillars of the EU….

Brexit means Brexit, does the UK want the benefits of the EU or not? If not then walk, if it does then remain. The choices are clear and have been laid out. The job the politicians and media are failing in, is explaining the available options and their implications.

Just found a source for this and it seems you’re right.

Dyer’s reasoning?  He was sick of politicians talking all the time and wanted to make them *do* something instead.

Hmm.

I do think he is a perfect example of the people who feel they have been lied to or voted out to stick one to politicians for the lolz, at least Dyer is clever enough and lacking the pride needed to essentially admit that.

Most won’t. An ex friend of mine addmitted she voted leave as a working class protest vote, didn’t think it would actually happen and then sent me a shocked text the day after the vite along the lines of “still have plenty of time to back out”…..errr no….you tit.

Still won’t afmit she was wrong though.

Danny Dyer’s last word, he said it just as morgan was speaking.

Coincidence?

One of my Mum’s friends voted leave because she was sick of seeing Poles and Lithuanians with smart phones.

Honestly, that was her reason.

My Mum thinks she’s changed her mind now.

One of my friends is in the free-wheeling global Britain tribe (which is actually a fair enough reason compared to ‘I’m not racist but…’)  The example he used was that we’re forced to buy all our bananas from former French colonies (what is it with Leavers and bananas).

I believe he is also swithering but I’m not sure.  Between the Independence referendum, Brexit, and Israel we’ve come to an unspoken agreement to avoid politics for a while.

Conversely I know remainders who would now vote for hard Brexit and crashing out to WTO.

they realise the situation but just want negotiations and bluster to be over so they can rebuild and start planning.

its a bit like shopping in Ikea. You choose what you want from the show room, they don’t have it in stock so you just get anything so as not to come back to the hellish place…

I think a lot of people knew the problems caused by the EU – and of course it does, like any other government.  But they were unaware of the advantages it gave the country.  And for the prosperous amongst us at least, how much of that prosperity has been helped by EU membership.  And I don’t think many of those less fortunate realise how little the EU had to do with that.

Conversely I know remainders who would now vote for hard Brexit and crashing out to WTO.

they realise the situation but just want negotiations and bluster to be over so they can rebuild and start planning.

Do you know any who would prefer that over not leaving at all, given the choice?

I think a lot of people knew the problems caused by the EU – and of course it does, like any other government.

You’re right of course – but I suspect a lot more think they know perceived problems.  There was a leaver in the audience on QT the other day trottering out the line about “not being told what to do” – I’ll wager that if he’d been asked to name something he’d been told to do that he didn’t like, he’d have had nothing.

This isn’t new of course, but it seems to be coming more and more prevalent.  There’s a vast tract of leavers who want to leave because they hate the idea of the EU, and whether or not their idea has any basis in reality is irrelevant to them.  ‘Unelected bureaucrats making our laws’ and all the rest of the emotive nonsense that goes with it.

And it’s not hard to see why.  The tabloid media propaganda machine feeds this fantasy.  The front page of the Express today is talking about losing joint counter-terrorism collaboration post-Brexit – the headline (paraphrasing from memory) reads “EU PUTS BRITAIN’S SECURITY AT RISK.”

It’s utterly insane; we choose to leave a club, lose the benefits of being in that club (which Remain warned would happen two years ago and were dismissed as “project fear”), and then blame the club for us not being able to use its facilities anymore.

I know plenty of people who would have liked to stay and see reform. Sadly that does not appear to have ever been considered…

i think the reasoning is that it is better to be standing in the shit working your way out rather than continuing to dig deeper into the pile.

Obviously if there was a position declared at the start of the negotiations or a desired outcome/plan in place things would probably be different

There’s a vast tract of leavers who want to leave because they hate the idea of the EU, and whether or not their idea has any basis in reality is irrelevant to them.  ‘Unelected bureaucrats making our laws’ and all the rest of the emotive nonsense that goes with it.

Most of them I suspect.

I know plenty of people who would have liked to stay and see reform. Sadly that does not appear to have ever been considered…

That was called stay as members. We reform and change things as part of that. I’d have hoped that a remain vote would have killed off some of the kippers and allowed us to return mep’s who showed up and took part.

Most of those telling you it was broken had years to try and fix it. They couldn’t be bothered to do anything other than fiddle their expenses.

Conversely I know remainders who would now vote for hard Brexit and crashing out to WTO.

Absolutely.

People who voted Remain who prefer no deal to close partnership with EU.

People who voted Leave who prefer membership to close partnership.

People who voted Remain who prefer close partnership to no deal.

People who voted Leave who prefer close partnership to no deal.

People who voted Remain who prefer close partnership to membership.

People who voted Leave who prefer membership to no deal.

etc

But a 52:48 split vote on a binary question is taken to be a mandate for … well, it’s still not close to being defined 2 years later. No need at all for any of us to have a say about it once/if it is ever defined.

As a staunch remainer i want this thing to go off the cliff.

We need a ****ing big reset, the **** wits who voted for this need to feel the pain, they need it rammed into their thick skulls by unemployment, high interest rates,  bankruptcies, repossessions otherwise they will sit there generation after generation blaming the EU and continuining to support the right wing nutters.

Bring it on the well educated, smart folks of this land will survive.

Bring it on the well educated, smart folks of this land will survive.

No they will just be dragged down.

May wont do it, they will do a “Norway” at the 11th hour and then blame the EU for the “shiteness” of the UK

The Norway deal is about as close to not crippling the economy as you can, short of staying in

No matter how well off you are if unemployment rises hard and money leaves it will hurt you.

Millions have given their lives to keep this country free in the 20 th century.

So what if a few hundred thousand people give their jobs to keep this country free in the 21st century?

As they queue at the job centre…we will remember them …..and then call them scroungers.

Bring it on the well educated, smart folks of this land will survive.

But who is going to look after Jocasta and Tabatha while your wife is out at work?

Who is going to clean the house?

Who on earth are you going to get to install your new DI2 on the Pinarello at the drop of a hat?

What hope is there of getting the hedge cut when your regular Garden contractor pisses off back to Romania? You’re not going to be able to get someone at those prices once there’s nobody willing to live eight to a two bed flat and work for £6 an hour cash in hand anymore.

let alone what’s going to happen to the cost of a skinny chai latte once the cafe’s start helping students pay their way through college rather than Polish girls working double shifts between there and the pub for minimum wage.

Doomed I tell you, we’re all doomed!

You’re not going to be able to get someone at those prices once there’s nobody willing to live eight to a two bed flat and work for £6 an hour cash in hand anymore.

Are you saying it’s only those nasty foreigners who do tax evasion?

once the cafe’s start helping students pay their way through college rather than Polish girls working double shifts between there and the pub for minimum wage.

Is brexit going to make the service industry pay more than minimum wages?

Wow it sounds wonderful.

Is brexit going to make the service industry pay more than minimum wages?

Have you ever ever heard of the concept of supply and demand?

Have you worked in the service industry? Is there a collective bargain union for cafe workers?

Let us know on tax evasion too in case you forgot which brits are at it

Have you ever ever heard of the concept of supply and demand?

Aw, bless.

What hope is there of getting the hedge cut when your regular Garden contractor pisses off back to Romania? You’re not going to be able to get someone at those prices once there’s nobody willing to live eight to a two bed flat and work for £6 an hour cash in hand anymore.

let alone what’s going to happen to the cost of a skinny chai latte once the cafe’s start helping students pay their way through college rather than Polish girls working double shifts between there and the pub for minimum wage

These are the sort of comments I would expect of a person that believes Mexicans are rapists and murderers.

This is typical of the lazy stereotyping of someone showing fear and resentment of those they do not know. I know European friends and work colleagues who have come over here to start a new life. The ones I personally know are engineering surveyors, nurses, teaching assistants and charity workers.

These ‘foreigners’ buy their coffee from the same Costa and watch the latest blockbuster in the same VUE cinema. More tellingly, they have children born in this country who are every bit as British or Scottish as me or my children.

This may come as a shock ninfan, but these ‘Poles are working hard to best provide for themselves and their family. They are also people with what is called a sense of humanity.

btw, they are probably Polish women rather than girls.

May wont do it, they will do a “Norway” at the 11th hour and then blame the EU for the “shiteness” of the UK

brexit wing of the tory party wouldn’t stand for it, free movement is a no no, it’s why may is still hoping for pink unicorns and her red white and blue brexit with cherry cake for everyone

theres an interesting critic of may in this  from 20,30 🙂

These are the sort of comments I would expect of a person that believes Mexicans are rapists and murderers.

Some are, most aren’t. I don’t think there’s anything wrong about making an effort prevent the ones who are from entering your country illegally, given that for the ones who aren’t there are legal pathways to citizenship.

This is typical of the lazy stereotyping of someone showing fear and resentment of those they do not know. I know European friends and work colleagues who have come over here to start a new life. The ones I personally know are engineering surveyors, nurses, teaching assistants and charity workers.

Ah, so you don’t socialise with the proles then? How very middle class.

These ‘foreigners’ buy their coffee from the same Costa and watch the latest blockbuster in the same VUE cinema. More tellingly, they have children born in this country who are every bit as British or Scottish as me or my children.

who’s opposed to foreigners com8ng into the country? I just want to choose who we let in.

This may come as a shock ninfan, but these ‘Poles are working hard to best provide for themselves and their family. They are also people with what is called a sense of humanity.

yes, most are, I agree. Now why can’t we let them in and reject the ones who aren’t?

btw, they are probably Polish women rather than girls.

they could be boys, blokes, intersex, genderfree, cisgender, pre-op transsexuals or attack helicopters for all I care. The coefficients still indicate that a rise in the proportion of immigrants working in semi/unskilled services leads to a reduction in sectoral wages

The coefficients still indicate that a rise in the proportion of immigrants working in semi/unskilled services leads to a reduction in sectoral wages

Well minimum wage jobs don’t go lower do they…

I know plenty of people who would have liked to stay and see reform. Sadly that does not appear to have ever been considered…

I’ve been championing this idea from the start. That’s exactly what should’ve happened after the referendum.

So is that a ‘no’ then? To my question, “do you know any who would prefer that over not leaving at all”?

We need a ****ing big reset, the **** wits who voted for this need to feel the pain

There’s an argument of truth here. But (at the risk of being selfish) I expect I’ll be dead before I see any return on that investment.

who’s opposed to foreigners com8ng into the country? I just want to choose who we let in.

Well, that’s fab, because we can already do that and choose not to.  After Brexit though we might have little option.

The coefficients still indicate that a rise in the proportion of immigrants working in semi/unskilled services leads to a reduction in sectoral wages

So.

1) We have a minimum wage in this country, assuming employers aren’t taking people on illegally.

2) Often the immigrants are doing jobs that our proud upstanding jobless Brits refuse to do.  Fruit picking, anyone?

3) What about skilled workers?

4) I thought they were all benefits scroungers and NHS tourists anyway?

Assuming employers aren’t taking people on illegally

It seems that’s exactly how some are abusing the nice, easy, undocumented, EU free movement of workers rules:

In the agriculture sector, the GLAA found evidence of 15-hour days, sometimes seven days a week, with double shifts without proper breaks, illegally low pay, serious safety incidents going unreported, and very poor living conditions. Romanian and Bulgarian workers were currently most at risk in this sector. Criminal groups were reported to be trafficking foreign workers into the food processing sector, with licensed companies warning they were being undercut by unlicensed ones.

Wages in food service, hotels and catering could be as low as £10 per shift, with some employees working up to 15 hours a day, and sleeping on floors. In car washes, the GLAA found trafficking, 12-hour shifts seven days a week, wages below the legal minimum, dangerous accommodation on site, and exploitation of undocumented workers. Romanians made up the largest number of victims.

One-third of UK garment manufacturing is based in Leicester but up to 75% of workers in the city’s textile factories are said to be paid less than the legal minimum wage. The report says in some places more than half the workforce is made up of undocumented workers mainly doing night shifts. Victims of exploitation in this sector are predominantly Pakistani and Romanian.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/may/08/slaves-working-in-uk-construction-and-car-washes-report-finds

#ItsAllTheEusFault

Bless

It seems that’s exactly how some are abusing the nice, easy, undocumented, EU free movement of workers rules:

That’s not an EU problem, that’s a corrupt employer problem.  The same is true for non-EU migrants and British nationals.

Undocumented?  It’s well documented, ten seconds’ Googling tells us that it’s Article 45 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union.

Ninfan,

do you remember https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-25986388

Are gangmasters abusing workers an EU issue or a UK domestic issue?

I just want to choose who we let in.

I’d rather you didn’t to be honest.

I am prepared to take the risk that some unsavoury characters may come here, as every member state within the EU has also done. I am prepared to take this risk as I strongly feel that economically and culturally, the UK is better for EU membership. Also travel of unsavoury characters works both ways. I hoped myself and my family would be free also to travel and work unhindered around Europe. Sadly under the current setup this is not to be.

Stats a few years ago said that 50% in immigration to the UK is from outside the EU. The split was approx 170,000 from outside and the same from inside the EU. It was interesting seeing Nigel Garage at the time shedding crocodile tears for Indian doctors who could not come to the UK because we were to busy allowing Eastern European hoodlums in.

Ah, so you don’t socialise with the proles then? How very middle class.

WTF are you on about? After several years stacking the shelves in Tesco I progressed a career as a site setting out engineer in opencast coal sites and civils projects. Try surveying a coal seam whilst up to the **** in mud in deepest darkest Ayrshire and say it’s middle class. It put me in the labour market with guess who? Eastern Europeans, some of whom I have remained friends with. My wife lords it over the masses as a staff nurse. I have had enjoyable evenings socialising with her work colleagues. Guess where many of them are from?

My sister in law is originally from a farm in a poor area of rural France. Her family come across to visit with not a word of English. Her 90 something grandma carries little in her handbag but vegetables in the hope these will be useful in a crisis.

A Scottish based German friend works trying to permanently remove armaments from conflict zones in Africa.

These interactions, family ties and friendships have been built up over years with open borders with the EU. I will look more fondly upon this, than the fear, prejudice and scepticism displayed by those I deeply disagree with.

Firstly let’s be fair to ninfan. Supply and demand meant that one of the first things that happened to me after Brexit was an unexpected and relatively large pay rise.

But then I am unashamedly middle class and we have been depending on importing EU engineers for a bit in my industry as the Brits basically aren’t much cop. Not complaining either way. I was well paid now I’m better paid.

Now

yes, most are, I agree. Now why can’t we let them in and reject the ones who aren’t?

We could. Your problem was with Westminster not Brussels. Whether we can in the future remains to be seen. Supply and demand you know, we’ll have to take what we can get.

 I just want to choose who we let in.

Great scot!

I’m just imagining ninfan as some sort of far-right Hogwarts sorting hat at border control, deciding the fate of immigrants based on a checklist from Katie Hopkins blog