TJ every Tory PM is worst than the last one right ? If it’s not May it will be Boris, Gove or another Brexiteer

Haha. All Brexiters too terrified of actually being the Brexit PM as they know that they’ll have to sell a compromise and none of them dare admit the Brexit they sold the country was a lie.

So they’ll hide behind May like the cowards they are until it’s over and they can blame May for it being a shitshow

Choose a poll to your liking THM, remembering that alternatives are available.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-poll-two-thirds-badly-theresa-may-david-davis-a8170761.html

So what we have seen is that the Brexmaniac Telegraph says people want Brexit, and the Remainer Independent says they don’t, while the Guardian publishes opinion pieces both for and against.

There are and the basic message remains. There hasn’t been a major change of opinion nor has there been a major change of circumstance

So Jenkins is pretty much spot on

Won’t stop the false narratives though …..

nor has there been a major change of circumstance

By this, do you mean, that our government still hasn’t decided, never mind told us, what its plan is? What it wants to replace membership with? And “bespoke” or “unique” or “ambiguous” means little more than “Brexit means Brexit”. While we are weighing up “Any deal you prefer, possible or not” vs “membership”, then there will be little movement. For what it’s worth, I’d expect a straight “Leave or remain” poll, or vote, would be won by Leave by slightly more than in 2016, if held today.

nor has there been a major change of circumstance

For once I agree with your analysis of our tory govt

TJ every Tory PM is worst than the last one right ?

Whilst true I wont like them, by anyones standards, May is amongst the least talented and adept to hold the office – down there with Brown in being a decent human being way out of their depth and the living embodiment of the peter principle – though May was hardly brilliant as home secretary

May was hardly brilliant as home secretary

That’s probably a contender for understatement of the year.

I prefer ‘proven track record of abject failure followed by inexplicable promotion’

in the same breath said Remain/Leave was too complicated to allow people to vote

Isn’t it?

Democracy means everyone’s an expert? I struggle to understand the justification for this idea.

No I don’t Kelvin

No it isn’t mol. It a pretty straightforward issue. Do you want to be a member of the EU or not. Most people can answer immediately.

Do you do it on purpose?

Yes but only because most of them have a nonsense fantasy idea as to what “not” means.

Quite a lot have a nonsense fantasy about what saying “not” means too.

I agree with you both – let’s have a fact-based second referendum.

Read munchau in tomorrow’s FT on website now, then

Given how clear it is now that the leavers lies are lies and that any leave outcome is going to be disastrous I very much doubt a second ref would be for leave. All those ridiculous claims would now gain no traction having been proved wrong.

Hugely disastrous?

Well I never – even the CBI now publicly say its going to be a disaster and want to stay in the customs union and single market

n a speech on Monday, Carolyn Fairbairn, the CBI director general, will also call for Theresa May’s government to show greater urgency in Brexit talks to give clarity to companies that will otherwise need to trigger alternative plans, including moving jobs and investment offshore.

She will say that a no-deal scenario would be an act of “great economic self-harm”, by imposing billions of pounds of costs on UK goods sold to the EU and vice versa, and existing trade deals between the EU and Canada and the EU Norway would not be the best solution for Britain.

“Economics and prosperity must be put ahead of politics and red lines,” she will say, according to excerpts of the speech released on Sunday.

Business leaders are privately pushing for a new campaign to reverse Brexit as concerns mount about the viability of government plans to prevent a collapse in exports to Europe.

On Monday, the CBI launched its most sustained attack yet on the government’s Brexit strategy by calling for full customs union with the EU and single market participation, even if it means abandoning the pursuit of separate trade deals with the rest of the world.

Neither the Tories nor Labour are advocating a hard brexit. Both agree that we need to negotiate on-going access to the single market and this is also recognised increasingly by our European partners.

The scare stories are unnecessary and unwelcome (albeit quite funny)

Well we will have “access” to the single market regardless so no negotiations necessary. Besides TNUMTWNT.

TJ the CBI have been Remain Central from the very start. As Hannah points out big business loves the EU as thry can afford all the regulatory compliance and dreedom of movement teduces rheur labour costs and lets them move production wherever they want. The costs of membership are paid by taxpayers and they can easily nominally shift business around playing off one EU country against another minimising tax they pay

Sorry Jamba but the CBI is not just big business anything but, they have a huge level of support from their membership to fight it’s corner.

Its also a huge change in their position. Thats one of the main groups supporting may and bankrolling the tories turning agaisnt them.

I gave the reasons big buisness like the EU, 90% of our economic activity is domestic and we have a big trade imbalance with the EU anyway. Paying to be a member doesn’t make any sense never mind the sovereignty arguments. Japan, Cananda, South Korea etc etc don’t pay to have a trade deal or accept ECJ / freedom of movement etc.

TJ no it’s not a change AT ALL. They have been Remain Central from the beginning. My old boss is one of the Tories largest donors and he is very much pro Leave (and pro Boros fwiw). Personally I think a Remain biased Tory Party would struggle to raise any significant money.

You really believe that? Its a very significant change from a position of fence sitting to a strong condemnation of leaving from what I have seen.

Yes it’s true Japan doesn’t benefit from freedom of movement with the EU. Instead it’s an insular failing country heading into a demographic death spiral. Perhaps not the best example for a brexiteer to use.

Why would the CBI be (1) pro-brexit and (2) anti a FTA that ensures (preferential) access to the single market ?

That would be most odd

Pretty odd for the Tories to be pro-brexit too. We live in interesting times.

A reminder that the best possible FTA is NOTHING LIKE OPERATING IN A SINGLE MARKET AND CUSTOMS UNION, whatever people may be implying. Hence CBI is very much at odds with our current political opportunists leaders.

You don’t need to remind me. I voted to remain.

But IT WILL be much better than the doomsday merchants keep predicting

This “doomsday merchants” stuff is rubbish… just like people pointing out that the EU serves a role in keeping peace in Europe was turned into “threats of world war three” by Boris, and “stop denying the role of NATO” by others… the attempts to point out the loss of favourable trade arrangements and established methods for cross border is turned into “of course we’ll still trade with Europe” and “no one is talking about cutting ourselves off completely” and “we won’t become a third world country” nonsense… no one serious said any such thing would happen… Leaving is highly damaging to the UK… but of course we can get through it. I could get on with my life if you amputated a few of my toes… but don’t expect acceptance, never mind thanks… and don’t turn around and say… “see, no where near as bad as having both legs chopped off, is it”.

This “doomsday merchants” stuff is rubbish…

True. Rubbish but fun to read

Brexit has already had badly damaging consequences and we haven’t even left yet. the loss of jobs already is huge, the loss of highly skilled and trained staff in the NHS is significant damage and its only going to get worse. Growth down, ineward investent cancelled, highly profitable financial trading lost and much more to come.

But of course for those who love th etories they can ignore this and those who hate furriners its a price worth payiung

But anyone who denies this is happening and is only the beggining is deluding themselves and is blind to the data

thecaptain – Member

Pretty odd for the Tories to be pro-brexit too. We live in interesting times.

the vast majority of tory mps are remainers. Its their membership tiny tho it is that are leavers

Most of the doomsday stuff was made up or misinterpreted (deliberately?) by Brexies.

Well you kindly gave us data that showed quite the opposite with the NHS.

Plus official jobs data tells a different story as does upward revision of growth, strong performance of Uk manufacturing, French banks investing IN the U.K.etc

No trading lost either.

Why do you keep ….never mind, we know the answer

The FTs version on the huge loss of jobs

The UK’s historic low unemployment rate has been one of the major economic success stories of the past year. Initially led by part-timers and the self-employed, the growth in employment has broadened to include full time employees.

Who needs facts when the alternatives are so amusing?

Most of the doomsday stuff was made up or misinterpreted (deliberately?) by Brexies.

Well, my poorly written rant was supposed to make that point… I clearly failed.

Rubbish but fun to read

Often very difficulty to read.

No trading lost either.

Overall trading is up, but held back by the ongoing Brexit mess… trade has been missed out on for sure… would you call that “trading llost”? Would you call rEU companies changing supply chains to cut out UK links as “trading lost’? I think I would.

Amazing that uk manufacturing is doing so well then isn’t it?

Glad they are getting on with it too.

And who would want to invest in UK?

Chinese foreign direct investment into the United Kingdom more than doubled in one year – from $9.2 billion in 2016 to $20.8 billion in 2017 – despite uncertainty surrounding Britain’s pending exit from the European Union.

With the export benefits of a devalued currency whilst retaining full membership of SM & CU, you’d have to hope that manufacturing would be doing well.

Post Brexit? Who knows.

No trading lost either.

~Sheer nonsense the facts say otherwise.