THM you are wrong. So very very wrong.

So mattyfez

1. Were the comments quoted above made by DD, as you seem to be suggesting, or as my reading of the sky news article suggests by Joe McHugh? If the latter, why would he contradict himself so obviously? I have only read the sky reports, so you could be correct.

2. If DD is wrong, why is Verhofstadt now proposing to amend the documentation? Is he paid by the hour?

3. If the issue is indeed unsettled (despite forceful counter arguments presented above but by someone who is normally loose with fact) what does that say about the relative importance placed by all parties re moving on the trade versus securing an answer to the Irish question?

The sky piece

He told broadcaster RTE: “My question to anybody within the British Government would be: why would there be an agreement, a set of principled agreements, in order to get to phase two, if they weren’t going to be held up?

“That just sounds bizarre to me.

“This, as far as we’re concerned, is a binding agreement, an agreement in principle.”

The Spiegel report is in German, but here is a Google Translate translation of the start of the story, with minor tidying up from me.

The German government has called on Britain’s prime minister Theresa May to properly report on the results of the previous Brexit negotiations in her homeland. “You have to play and speak the same way as you do in London,” said Michael Roth (SPD) on the sidelines of an EU ministerial meeting in Brussels. He was “somewhat surprised” that what the British government said in Brussels was “a little different” to what was said in London.

Roth hinted that May had given the impression that Britain only had to pay the Brexit final bill to the EU if there was a deal on a trade agreement.

From an EU point of view, however, this does not correspond to the deal that May received at the end of last week in Brussels. It stipulates that the agreements on the final invoice will result in a legally binding withdrawal agreement which is independent of the trade agreement desired by the United Kingdom.

From the grauniad

Good to see the FT also clearing up the distorted fears re the number of bankers moving from London. All the doomsday forecast proved wrong yet again with much smaller numbers of staff actually likely to be involved. No surprises as just another wild distortion of the truth before.

tjagain – Member
It stipulates that the agreements on the final invoice will result in a legally binding withdrawal agreement which is independent of the trade agreement desired by the United Kingdom.

I couldn’t find that bit in the UK/EU agreement thing here:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/joint-report-on-progress-during-phase-1-of-negotiations-under-article-50-teu-on-the-uks-orderly-withdrawal-from-the-eu

Although it does say we’ll do whatever it takes to keep an open border between NI and the RoI. Which pretty much means we’ll do whatever it takes to stay in the single market and conform to all those pesky rules about bendy bananas(*).

(*) Yes, I know. Boris has a lot to answer for.

No doomsday THM, I don’t think that was ever on the table. However death by a thousand cuts still very much on the agenda.

On the contrary IGM our very own sage was vociferous on the issues. Wrong but vociferous

Did you believe it at the time? Did I?

Brexit will not lead to economic armageddon but it does look like a slow and continuing decline for the UK – and though that will be difficult to measure precisely in the general noise, rises and falls of long term economics, we’ll look round in 10 or 20 years and wonder what might have been.

Five Live have got an interesting programme on at the moment. Its with people who voted leave, asking them their opinions now.

Whats striking is the ‘have cake and eat it’ delusion that still seems to persist with them all. They still believe the pack of lies they were sold. They still seem to think that they can have full access to the EU markets, while not paying anything into the budget, and cherrypicking which regulations they will and will not adhere too.

Madness!

But obviously, this is all totally undeliverable. That becomes clearer by the day

So what happens when all these people who voted for a pipe-dream, realise they’ve been sold a pup and a pipe-dream is exactly what it is?

So what happens when all these people who voted for a pipe-dream, realise they’ve been sold a pup and a pipe-dream is exactly what it is?

They’ll just keep believing what Guido/telegraph/mail/sun etc tell them, that it’s all going swimmingly, anything bad is the fault of the EU and anything really bad about the talks, then they’ll just run a front page splash about a minor celebrity doing something salacious.

Even if the trade talks have just confirmed our remoaner prophecies of doom (t(h)m)that we’d have to concede on everything

How odd you have such a faith in those whose only purpose is to make money.

Its also odd that such a great believer in democracy doesnt find this objectionable.

igm – Member
Did you believe it at the time? Did I?

Of course not. But we were exceptions. See above.

Brexit will not lead to economic armageddon but it does look like a slow and continuing decline for the UK – and though that will be difficult to measure precisely in the general noise, rises and falls of long term economics, we’ll look round in 10 or 20 years and wonder what might have been.

There is no control unfortunately 😉

But don’t forget the remoaners are arguing for Armageddon.

So what happens when all these people who voted for a pipe-dream, realise they’ve been sold a pup and a pipe-dream is exactly what it is?

That is what the “remoaner” and “enemies of the people” press is for. Its setting up for the stab in the back excuse.

All this reminds me of the sort of thing you’d see in an episode of “Fawlty Towers” . . . .

Basil Fawlty running from room to room assuring each different group of people that everything’s ok, when in fact the hotel is on fire. The fire hoses have perished through non existent maintenance and the front door is locked.

It was always difficult, but in these days of social media and high speed internet, it is literally impossible to tell several groups of people different things at the same time, and that’s what appears to be happening here.

Playing the “Fake News” card can only work to a point.

Can I ask THM and Jambalaya if they play golf?

The leavers on Five Live earlier sound positively well-informed compared to Nigel Lawson, who’s presently being interviewed about leaving the EU. Talk about completely ****ing delusional!!! I think he’s talking about the re-establishment of Empire. What ****ing planet are these people on?!!! 😯

Stop bet such a remoaner Binners, wasn’t Lawson saying we’d never pay a divorce bill of >10bn a few months ago?

Bien sur, j’aime jouer au golf

(J and I first met playing tennis every week many years ago (1990s) but took some time on here to realise we knew each other! We have never played golf though. J is an expert hockey player too)

But we are on different sides of the debate here!

😀

I’m glad to see the Mash have the inside line on David Davies’ memoires!

I AM David Davis MP, world-class negotiator and hero of Brexit, and these are my infallible strategies for outwitting any opponent.

At the start of negotiations it’s normal for both sides to make unrealistic demands. The EU asked for £39 billion so I demanded a five-foot prawn mayo baguette. There’s still some left in the fridge so I feel I won that round.

Negotiations are like a game of poker. You’ve got to show other people your cards, look really unhappy if you’ve got rubbish ones and shout ‘Snap!’ if you’ve got two the same colour.

Become a master of bluff. At the Brexit negotiations I told Barnier the UK was going to join a different European Union, to which he replied “Oh for ****’s sake!” and snapped a pencil. I knew then that I had him.

If you’re negotiating with foreigners you can tell them one thing then say something totally different back in England. It’s not like there’s some magical device for sending words to different countries.

NEVER let other negotiators know what you’re thinking via subtle visual or verbal cues. Put a plastic bucket on your head and keep shouting “Bollocks! Bollocks! Bollocks!”. Only this way will you win their respect.

Here’s an old trick from my Territorial SAS days: if events are not going in your favour, run off and hide in a ditch for several days sucking the fluid out of frogs to survive. That had the EU confused when we were meant to be discussing border controls!

Robert Tombs very good on complaisant remainers

I am not the only person who feels an odd sense of déjà-vu when listening to Remainers. The philosopher John Gray recently ventured a comparison with the ‘fellow travellers’ of the 1930s. Others recall George Orwell’s contrast between ‘the vast majority of the people who feel themselves to be a single nation’ with ‘the English intelligentsia’ who ‘take their cookery from Paris and their opinions from Moscow’. When I hear prominent Remainers unquestioningly supporting the demands of the EU Commission, however incoherent and excessive, I cannot but remember the opposition leader Charles James Fox happily admitting during the Napoleonic Wars that ‘The Triumph of the French government over the English does in fact afford me a degree of pleasure which is very difficult to disguise.’

Full article

There is no control unfortunately

Very true. Maybe we should ask the unicorns to bring us either a control or some control.

Complacent? Is that the opposite of remoaning 😉

When I hear prominent Remainers unquestioningly supporting the demands of the EU Commission, however incoherent and excessive, I cannot but remember the opposition leader Charles James Fox happily admitting during the Napoleonic Wars that ‘The Triumph of the French government over the English does in fact afford me a degree of pleasure which is very difficult to disguise.’

What was that about Patriotism is the last resort of…
Perhaps it’s because people chose to educate themselves on what the likely outcomes and are not surprised when they come true?

Complacent?

No

@binners 🙂

Those UAU titles are mannny years ago TMH

Tennis I don’t believe I ever won a single game against TMH, fortunately it was mostly doubles so I could hide a bit

I am nonwhere near good enough to play golf with TMH. I’d br embarrassed to do so. Havent really played since 2000 was never consistent enough to break 90. My clubs cost about £250 and I took the game up because of all the client events / work freebees. Got to meet Henry Cooper and Brucie as well as pris like Els and VJ through golf so happy days.

Anyway what’s your point @zippy. How are the golfers/non-golfers in Sunderland relevant here ?

If you’re negotiating with foreigners you can tell them one thing then say something totally different back in England. It’s not like there’s some magical device for sending words to different countries.

yep !!
Davis really is trying his very best to get fired, what does the man have to do!?!?

all this stick for remoaners is silly

yes some predictions were overblown, but george osborne is full of shit, everyone knows it!

its NOT being unpatriotic or a doom-monger to be a realist, a few months ago the brexies in gov & on here were telling us we’d never pay even a 10bn exit bill, meanwhile us britain-hating remoaners were not convinced

(and we all knew that £100bn was never going to be the final price, nor was 10bn, but smewhere in between)

Indeed kimbers – compromises

Interesting link mefty thanks

Stick kimbers???This is a forum than dished out stick in spades to Brexshiteers in a very personal manner. To the extent that few leavers remain active. And then remoaners took over the BS mantle post-result in an attempt to out BS the Brexshiteers. Our tag team leading the charge. The extent of exaggeration was as bad if not worse as the Brexshiteers in whom they were happy to poor scorn. This continues to this day despite being 99% wrong throughout.

But don’t forget the remoaners are arguing for Armageddon.

OK well looking on the bright side at least that clearly implies that you aren’t applying that childish moniker to me. I think that brexit is and will be bad for the UK in economic, social, political and cultural terms, but we’ll certainly survive albeit as a poorer and nastier nation. I can handle being a bit poorer without really caring that much, and I’m confident I’ll be able to travel and work much as currently so I can afford to enjoy the shitfest as the lemmings charge for the cliff.

TJ – yes there will be a final agreement in Oct 18 (probably) which will contain transition and (at least) heqds if terms for a free trqde agreement. That will contain how Ireland is going to work. If there is not a free trqde deal there will be WTO plus seprate agreemetns on Ireland, fisheries and air travel. Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed so in the case of no free trade there is no money and no “regulatory alignment”. Both sides expect there to be a free trade deal, you can see that in EU budgeting as they are only discussing the “black hole” from 2021 not 2019

The extent of exaggeration was as bad if not worse as the Brexshiteers in whom they were happy to poor scorn. This continues to this day despite being 99% wrong throughout.

ive told you a million times, dont exagerate 😆

Edit Right you’ve made me trawl back through this thread

Here’s me being 99% wrong a few months ago, and jambs saying we’d never pay…

I still think that it’ll be around 40bn,

If there is not a free trqde deal there will be WTO plus seprate agreemetns on Ireland, fisheries and air travel.

Now that, Jamba, is the interesting bit of what you say. It’s certainly not the impression the text of statement made tried to give – but that isn’t quite the same as saying you’re wrong.

On balance my suspicion is if a proper deal can’t be done then nor can “WTO plus seprate agreemetns on Ireland, fisheries and air travel”.

Not you kimbers !

You haven’t claimed that title 😉

Over and above the £39bn, I wonder what we’ll end up paying for access to the SM etc?

Have we done the “SHOCK” headline on the Daily Express yet?

Loving the responses on twitter:

“Bear in woods! You will not believe what happens next?!”

‘What religion is the Pope, the answer may surprise you! (He’s Catholic!)”

“Shock as dropped object moves downwards towards a larger massive body through mysterious force!”

😆

More at Daily Express’ Reveals Brexit ‘SHOCK’ Warning That Shocks Absolutely No One (HuffPo)

So the EU don’t want to be seen to be delaying the negotiations so they will be publishing their guidelines for a future trade deal in March 2018 so talks can begin in April.

Time to tell them we’ve chosen WTO as they are too slow. No deal, no money.

@igm you don’t need a deal on WTO, the UK and EU would each have most favoured nation status by default. If the EU don’t want a deal on fisheries we’ll keep all 100% of the catch quota. If they don’t want a deal on flights then Brits will not be going on holiday to South of France, Spain, Italy or Greece in anything like the numbers they do. Ultimately as TMH says the adults in the room will decide, hint this means the constituent Governments and NOT the EU commission.

jambs saying we’d never pay…

I don’t think I did. I said we need not pay and we should not pay. Sadly I am not PM 😐

If the EU don’t want a deal on fisheries we’ll keep all 100% of the catch quota

Is that what we’re going to use that new aircraft carrier for Jammers? A new cod war? This time with fighter jets!!!* 😀

* if/when they arrive

@igm you don’t need a deal on WTO

Maybe, maybe not, opinions vary on this and I don’t have one.

Which is why I was careful about what of your rambling piece I quoted and how I responded to it.

I think my point stands (even if you missed it).

PS the just keep our quota idea won’t work. Most of our catch we sell. Most of what we eat we buy. Blinking trade, keeps getting in the way of blind nationalism.