• This topic has 35 replies, 18 voices, and was last updated 11 years ago by TomB.
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  • Epi-pens
  • BikePawl
    Free Member

    Hi All
    there was a thread on here a while back about administring epi-pens and a link to some government websites about the legality of administring them, but a search doesn’t throw anything up.
    Could anyone help?

    ceepers
    Full Member

    wHAT’S your worry?

    If the person is having an anaphylaxis and needs the epi pen, i’m sure they would be happy to have you use it on them since they might die if you don’t! The epi pen only contains adrenaline which occurs naturally in the body so if you were to administer it unnecessarily there is no risk of harm. I’m not sure i see where the legal risk is. It’s akin to using one of those defibrillators that are in train stations

    ir_bandito
    Free Member

    I carry an epi-pen almost everywhere, and my missus has a spare for me in her handbag. Suffer serious anaphylaxia if I eat raw fruit. In the past I’ve made sure my colleagues know how to use it, although that’s a point, haven’t checked recently. Quite happy for anyone to stab my full of adrenalin at any time 🙂

    On the whole though I try and avoid raw fruit. Its easier.

    footflaps
    Full Member

    Suffer serious anaphylaxia if I eat raw fruit.

    never heard of that one, is it common?

    BikePawl
    Free Member

    Not a worry, I’m redoing my B.A.S.P first aid course this weekend, and on previous cousres we’ve been told not to administer epi-pens as we are not trained, this is working with under 18’s. But I saw a thread on here a while back with links to gov websites with guidance on using them legally.

    DrP
    Full Member

    …so if you were to administer it unnecessarily there is no risk of harm

    Hmm… 😯

    Go on – have a go….

    DrP

    ski
    Free Member

    I keep them too, bee stings for me, never used one yet touch wood, apart from trying one out on an orange (sorry ir_bandito).

    I had to have trianing on how to use them, if you inject yourself in the wrong place with one, they can be curtains for you!

    Not sure what the latest advice was for someone else to administer one, but last time I did my first aid cource, it was a big no-no, might have changed though.

    qwerty
    Free Member

    If someone is crashing/dying in front of you from what clearly appears to be anaphylactic shock, i think you seriously need to question your morals regarding the legality of saving their life.

    My advice would be to try your damn hardest to stop flapping and ensure that they get their epi pen hit & arrange for a 999 response from the ambulance service stating “anaphylactic reaction”.

    Adverse reactions to adrenaline include palpitations, tachycardia, arrhythmia, anxiety, headache, tremor, hypertension, and acute pulmonary edema.

    geoffj
    Full Member

    How hard could it be? 🙄

    [video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOoJoTAXDPk[/video]

    bigyinn
    Free Member

    My OH works as a lunchtime playground / lunch helper at a local primary school. She’s recently completed a first aid course and has been told that if a child carries an epi-pen, only the child can administer it, she or anyone else cannot.
    WTF is the point of that? Its nothing to do with the childs well being and everything to do with liability, ridiculous!

    olie
    Free Member

    I have a child with an epipen.

    At her school they had a visit from a nurse who trained the staff how to use the epipen if required. Any school that doesn’t/won’t do this is bonkers! Training is free and releases you from any possible litigation. Basically if the school won’t ask for the training they are not doing their job.

    Epipens are simple to use with directions on the side, basically a 3 step how to. I know how to use one and so do my other children (all under 10) just in case. It’s not rocket science and as mentioned up there somewhere you really would have to examine your moral compass if you weren’t prepared to administer in an emergency.

    ski
    Free Member

    qwerty – Member

    If someone is crashing/dying in front of you from what clearly appears to be anaphylactic shock, i think you seriously need to question your morals regarding the legality of saving their life.

    My advice would be to try your damn hardest to stop flapping and ensure that they get their epi pen hit & arrange for a 999 response from the ambulance service stating “anaphylactic reaction”.

    As long as you dont plant the thing into my heart I dont mind.

    The last time it occured for me, I had time to write a note and tell the bus driver wht was wrong with me, could not talk as my throat was rapidly swelling up, he drove me straight to hospital, much to the annoyance of all the passengers! This was years back when common sence was the norm and H&S was putting your fag out before filling up your car 😉

    Now I would die at the bus stop, while the driver gave me the list of reasons why he could not drive me 😉

    BikePawl
    Free Member

    Found it

    I think this it what I was looking for, it allows parents to legally administer. So would that cover anyone acting in “loco parentis”?

    AjsMonkey
    Full Member

    I’m allergic to Nuts and have unfortunately suffered a severe anaphylactic reaction. Luckily i was able to administer my Anapen myself, but i only did so with the advice/assistance of an off-duty nurse, as i wasn’t thinking straight and was sh*tting myself as i was in the middle of nowhere. It then took 45 mins for an ambulance to arrive, meaning the effects of the Anapen were wearing off. Again luckily the nurse called a local GP she knew, who drove to us, diluted cardiac adrenaline he carried to the dose needed for Anaphylaxis and also injected me with antihistamine. So from being 15 mins from “lights out”, followed by 3 days in hospital all was well.
    So my finally my 10 pence on this one:
    If anaphylactic carry more than one Anapen/Epipen (esp if not near a hospital, i carry 3)
    If you see someone suffering a reaction and they have an Anapen/Epipen, for the love of every holy figure known to man, stick it in their thigh and call 999.

    druidh
    Free Member

    I imagine you would need some form of Parental Consent form for that. If my daughters school is anything to go by, you’ll need a fresh form for every outing. We have a choice of “administer medical treatment” or “administer medical treatment excluding transfusions”.

    ceepers
    Full Member

    qwerty hit the nail on the head i think.

    I’m sure there would be potential legal and moral questions about a “trained first aider” watching someone die in front of them from anaphylaxis. I’m pretty sure that the legal system would (eventually) agree that it was reasonable for such a person to administer an epi pen to save a life if the person having the reaction was not capable of doing it themselves. In most cases the key thing is whether you acted reasonabley in the situation, i would argue that in this case you would be.

    As an illustrative aside, the following are the side effects from ibuprofen which no-one worries about doliong out to other peoples kids……

    •nausea (feeling sick)
    •vomiting (being sick)
    •diarrhoea (passing loose, watery stools)
    •indigestion (dyspepsia)
    •abdominal (tummy) pain
    •headache
    •dizziness
    •fluid retention (bloating)
    •raised blood pressure
    •gastritis (inflammation of the stomach)
    •duodenal or gastric ulcers (open sores in the digestive system, see Peptic ulcer)
    •allergic reactions, such as a rash
    •worsening of asthma symptoms by causing bronchospasm (narrowing of airways)

    Less common side effects can also include malaena (black stools) and haematemesis (blood in your vomit). These side effects can indicate that there is bleeding in your stomach

    druidh
    Free Member

    Sorry – but I’d never give a child medication without clearing it with their parents.

    ceepers
    Full Member

    fair enough but i bet you would give a workmate a couple if you had them on you and they had a headache. I was just trying to point out that the risk with the epi pen is minimal (in that situation), on a par with commonly used medication and the reward, ie saving a life, massive.

    What i’m trying to say is that as ajsmonkey points out, in those few minutes it really is life or death and in that situation things really get reduced to basic survival first, legal considerations should come a way higher up.

    Kind of like maslow’s heirachy of need

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow’s_hierarchy_of_needs

    druidh
    Free Member

    I’d expect a workmate to be able to make up their own mind whether or not they wanted to take them.

    BTW – this is somewhat different from administering first aid.

    BikePawl
    Free Member

    Yes parental consent would be needed, but any group I take out there is always parental consent or they don’t go. The parental consent can be term or year long, but if the trip is extraordinary then new consent is needed.
    As a first aider you are not qualified to administer any medicine.
    I’m led to believe there was a first aider charged after using an epi-pen on a child who had been stung by a bee.
    Yes it may seem stupid, but them’s the rules.

    geoffj
    Full Member

    Kind of like maslow’s heirachy of need

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow’s_hierarchy_of_needs

    I’m not sure Maslow was considering the successful use an epi-pen as an example of Love/Belonging, Esteem or Self Actualisation TBH 😆

    ir_bandito
    Free Member

    never heard of that one, is it common

    Its related to Birch Tree pollen (I gethayfever in the spring)
    Basically can’t eat raw apples, pears, cherries, nectarines, some nuts etc.
    If its cooked/dried/processes in any way, it eremoves the protein that gets to me.

    and yes, its not uncommon.
    From here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/health/physical_health/conditions/in_depth/allergies/allergicconditions_hayfever.shtml

    Oral allergy syndrome

    Some people with hay fever develop oral allergies to certain fruits, vegetables and nuts. This is also called pollen-food or oral allergy syndrome (OAS).

    People with OAS typically develop hay fever in early spring and notice itching and swelling of the mouth and throat when they eat fresh fruit and vegetables. This is due to the food containing a protein similar to the allergy-provoking protein in the pollen.

    The hay fever usually first appears in the teens, with oral allergies developing in the 20s. It doesn’t usually progress beyond oral irritation.

    Those who are allergic to silver birch pollen develop oral allergies to apples, peaches, cherries, carrots, celery, hazelnuts, peanuts and walnuts. People allergic to grass pollen may develop oral allergies to tomato, melon and watermelon.

    Mugwort pollen allergy cross-reacts with apple, celery and carrot. Ragweed pollen allergy cross-reacts with bananas, melon and honey.

    People don’t react to cooked or canned foods because this alters the allergen, rendering it less able to provoke an allergy

    druidh
    Free Member

    A trained nurse has this to say on the subject…

    Hi
    epipens and STW.
    I would be obliged if you would post this as there is a lot of misinformation on that page. i have recently done training on this
    The The Prescription Only Medicines (Human Use) Order 1997 bikepawl points to gives anyone trained or not the right to administer an epipen to the person it was prescribed for if they are unable to do so themselves and if it is a life threatening situation. Note “Parenteral” as used in that means “by injection”its not spelt the same as parental.
    To use this two tests must be met – the epipen must be legally held and prescribed and the situation must be life threatening without it – thus yo cannot use Bobs epipen on Fred even if Fred is in anaphalaxis nor can you use it if there is only minor symptoms.
    You do not need parental consent, you do not need any training – you only need to have met the two tests above.
    this piece of law is designed specifically for this situation and any first aid trainer who tells you you cannot administer is wrong and is giving daangerous advice
    There are other areas of law that also give you protection if you act in the persons best interests and in accordance with accepted practice. This would allow you to give Fred the epipen belonging to Bob but its an area propably best left to professionals.
    Thanks
    jeremy

    😉

    Sandwich
    Full Member

    Oh it’s a ouija message 😉

    BikePawl
    Free Member

    Well that answers that question.
    Thank you all very much, specially anyone lurking.
    Does this make you a medium Druidh?

    druidh
    Free Member

    Mostly. Large in Gore jackets though.

    AjsMonkey
    Full Member

    Does this mean i have to stop my Legal action against the Nurse and Doctor that saved my life? I hope not as the thought of it is the only thing that kept me fighting for breath………

    whytetrash
    Full Member

    I’ve done a REC 2 day course tailored for MTBing, we got told you need to make a 3 way connection

    1 is this (epipen, inhaler, GTN spray etc) yours?
    2 do you need it?
    3 do you want me to administer it/ help you use it?

    In my first aid kit I have aspirin for heart attacks and a ventolin inhaler both “belong to Fred” but I’d give em to any Tom,Dick or Harry in an emergency 😉

    DrP
    Full Member

    A trained nurse, called Jeremy, who can’t post here by themselves……

    MODS, MODS, HE’S BACK….

    DrP 😉

    BikePawl
    Free Member

    Calm yourself down Doctor, it’s ok he’s speaking from the other side. He’s not really here.
    Whoever said there wasn’t life after STW.

    Northwind
    Full Member

    Even when banned he makes more useful contribution than most forum members :mrgreen:

    DrP
    Full Member

    Calm yourself down Doctor, it’s ok he’s speaking from the other side…He’s not really here…


    This is where he touched me…. 🙁

    DrP

    chrispy
    Full Member

    Hey, legally I think an epipen can be administered in an emergency based on the current human medicines regulations

    See – http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2012/1916/regulation/238/made
    Followed by- http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2012/1916/schedule/19/made

    Could be wrong though

    glupton1976
    Free Member

    If someone needed an Epipen administered to them and I had one available to me the legalities of doing it wouldn’t even enter my head.

    I’m sure the “dont let someone die when they dont have to” moral law would beat anything else.

    BikePawl
    Free Member

    Thanks Chrispy, that looks like an update on presciption medicines order 1997.

    P.S your a bad man DrP you made me LOL at work.

    TomB
    Full Member

    A range of meds, including Adrenaline 1:1000 for anaphylaxis, are listed In the medicines act under schedule 7, and these can be administered by anyone in the event of a life-threatening emergency.

    Hope this helps.

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