Ending National Pay Rates

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  • Ending National Pay Rates
  • loum
    Member

    druidh,
    what’s the source for that graphic above please?
    I’m very interested to know what they based that on, and how recent it is.
    It points to some pretty strange positions, such as Labour being between The conservatives to their right and the Lib Dems to their left. Its almost as if they’d form an easier coalition with either of those parties than the present situation.
    Does this mean our democracy is a farce?
    Or is the pursuit of power more important than political differences?

    druidh
    Member

    loum – that was generated for the 2010 General Election. As to how “accurate” it is, that’s anyones guess!

    http://www.politicalcompass.org/ukparties2010

    This is an interesting graphic too..

    Zulu-Eleven
    Member

    Zulu-Eleven – Member
    I said that we should get rid of this silly little experiment in “democracy” – and I stand by the argument that its a failed experiment, since we don’t have democracy, we still have a division between classes of legislators and legislatees.

    Posted 4 months ago

    Thats really interesting Ernie – the fact that you chose to crop the context of my comment, but leave the header and “posted 4 months ago” footer in to give the impression that that was what I said, without the context. A quite interesting example of you deliberately manipulating peoples comments to present a different impression.

    Tell me Ernie – why did you choose to go so far as to keep the header and footer in, but remove the orhte relevant context?

    Do you believe in democracy, or universal suffrage?

    Do we have democracy in the UK? Since you’re defending it, I would imagine you think so… but proletarian democracy is not just representative democracy, but participatory democracy

    I said that we should get rid of this silly little experiment in “democracy” – and I stand by the argument that its a failed experiment, since we don’t have democracy, we still have a division between classes of legislators and legislatees. Parliamentary democracy was never supported by Lenin, Marx or Engels.

    You should be all for my argument Ernie – your failure to realise that parliamentary democracy is a continuation of the class division that prevents a democracy of the proletariat shows that, despite a lifetime of espousing the ideals and goals of the left, you’ve never come to truly understand what you’re asking for!

    Interesting that you should choose to misrepresent the context TJ… that my comment was about “this failed experiment” in “democracy” not out of a lack of support for democracy, but a lack of support for the pseudo democratic representative parliamentary system that we had in this country. Very different construction of the argument in a very different context.

    ernie_lynch
    Member

    Does this mean our democracy is a farce?

    It means that the political compass graph is a farce.

    Do the test yourself, you might be surprised with the result :

    http://www.politicalcompass.org/test

    Premier Icon stumpyjon
    Subscriber

    Ernie I often don’t agree with your views but that post up there is rather insightful and rather gets to the nub of the probolems in British politics.

    I think most people are rather right wing in this country to the extent that most of us are selfish with a small s. Those of us that earn and contribute would rather hold onto more of our earnings, even when that means poorer services, which we’re happy to accept as long as it’s not the services that directly affect us.

    I think what we’re looking for is a right wing party that isn’t as obviously elitist (and I mean that in a nepotistic sort of way, nothing wrong in genuine aspirations)as the Tories but instead is seen to be fair, to take unpopular decisions when they are the right thing to do, reward and promote people contributing to society and being a little disapproving of those that choose not to take some responsibility for themselves. But as you’ve said the people holding the real power are the floating voters, many of whom are floating because they don’t really think too hard about the bigger issues.

    Shame the Lib Dems fluffed up changing the voting system and set back proportional representation ten years.

    ernie_lynch
    Member

    A quite interesting example of you deliberately manipulating peoples comments to present a different impression.

    😀 I didn’t manipulate any comment of yours – I copied and pasted what you wrote !

    Yes you’re right, I didn’t copy and paste the whole post – why would I do that ? I just copied and pasted the bit which was relevant.

    And yeah, I left out the bit where you lectured me on what I should believe ….. are you surprised ?

    So anyway, what does all this other stuff prove ? It’s very clear that up until today you had a very contemptuous attitude towards British democracy, but now this evening you’re singing its praises. Hypocrite.

    Zulu-Eleven
    Member

    Ah, its my attitude to democracy thats contemptuous is it?

    But you’re the one that says the Falklands should be handed back to the Argentines against the will of the islanders, and that Gay marriage should be legalised despite the majority of the public being against it 😉

    druidh
    Member

    Anyway – about the ending of National Pay Rates…..

    project
    Member

    Seeing as the bankers screwed the country, and now are owned by the state,perhaps we should reduce their pay to that of the lowest street cleaners.

    ernie_lynch
    Member

    I think most people are rather right wing in this country to the extent that most of us are selfish with a small s.

    I actually disagree, I think most people are a bit more left-wing than they imagine. That ‘political compass questionnaire’ certainly suggests that, although I have little faith in its overall conclusion.

    In my experience people tend to tow the line which is offered to them by the press, it’s the easiest thing to do – specially if you find politics fairly boring. But when people are engaged in argument and listen to opposing opinions, my experience suggests that they tend to be both more liberal and rather more left-wing than their starting position.

    The problem occurs because they generally tend to hear only one side of the argument, and they lack the motivation to actively seek other opinions. And the problem isn’t helped by lazy Labour politicians who lack the courage to make a stand.

    The only thing which is likely to change the Labour Party’s position is if they start seeing their support hemorrhaging to left parties such as the Greens. You’d be surprised how quickly self-serving career politicians in the Labour Party are prepared to change their position when required.

    ernie_lynch
    Member

    But you’re the one that says the Falklands should be handed back to the Argentines against the will of the islanders

    I’ve never said that ! 😀

    BTW, I find it interesting that you should say “handed back”……changed our position again have we ?

    loum
    Member

    Druidh, thank you.
    I’ve seen the test a while back (and forgot the website) but did n’t remember those graphics.
    Ernie, The test may well be a farce too, but that doesn’t prove that our democracy isn’t. 😉

    csb
    Member

    This could be great news for public sector workers who are located on the SE fringe and suffer inflated house prices but who don’t get any weighting for it. For example, Cambridge or Bristol based civil servants could benefit massively, as house prices are near Londons but wages much lower.

    3bikeman
    Member

    We will soon be doffing our caps to the lords of the manor.
    This government are intent on destroying any public service.
    Remember Beeching and the railways! same for public services – there will not be any, and no chance of bringing them back later.

    Going back 100 years

    rich get richer the poor get poorer
    Live in London get rich, live eleswhere get poor

    ernie_lynch
    Member

    Live in London get rich, live eleswhere get poor

    😕

    London has highest rates of poverty and inequality in UK

    csb – Member

    This could be great news for public sector workers who are located on the SE fringe and suffer inflated house prices but who don’t get any weighting for it. For example, Cambridge or Bristol based civil servants could benefit massively, as house prices are near Londons but wages much lower.

    I don’t think this is being brought in to raise wages in the public sector 😕

    3bikeman
    Member

    Bridport and Lyme Regis are known as ‘Notting Hill on Sea’because of all the Londoners [DFLs] buying their 2nd homes or selling up in London and moving to the good life!

    I agree there is a lot of poverty in London and there are many very low paid workers – they will just get poorer under this government – but the ‘quick buck’ boys will get richer!

    csb
    Member

    thekingisdead – no, but they may lift the pay freeze sooner to recognise higher costs in these places

    Junkyard
    Member

    It means that the political compass graph is a farce.

    Do the test yourself, you might be surprised with the result :
    more left wing and libertarian than Ghandi 😯

    Premier Icon ahwiles
    Subscriber

    druidh – Member

    Anyway – about the ending of National Pay Rates…..

    if it’s done well, there could be benefits.

    if it’s done badly, it’ll be awful.

    it won’t be done well.

    Kip
    Member

    Apparently I’m standing alongside The Dalai Lama!!! 🙄

    deepreddave
    Member

    It’s the perfect way to keep the poor and less well educated in exactly that position and widen the north south divide. So much for the exit london strategy….. When I was in my 20s not voting was such a bad thing, you should use your vote or you can’t complain but now there’s genuinely no decent able honest party to bloomin well vote for!

    dekadanse
    Member

    Sorry – just joined in, forgive me if I repeat what others have said:

    Obvious really –
    a) let’s all have a race to the bottom and compete to see who can have the most shit wages and conditions within the next 5 years, thereby destroying all that has been gained by struggling for collective rights over the last 100 years;
    b) let’s try to use the force of envy to pit private sector worker against public sector worker, in order to;
    c) distract attention from the fact that the capitalist system caused the mess we’re in, and that to change anything we need collective action by ALL groups of workers.

    Happy now, Georgie and Dave?

    ernie_lynch
    Member

    Happy now, Georgie and Dave?

    Short term yes, I’m sure they will be very happy indeed.

    However the long term prognosis suggests that should they succeed in their obvious agenda the actual consequences of their greed-driven class war will wipe the smiles off their faces.

    Quite simply because their precious capitalist system can’t function effectively under conditions of extreme inequality, as it descends into a mortal crises caused by the paradox of overproduction and underconsumption.

    Something which was recognised many generations ago but which today is ignored by a new generation of right-wing politicians who choose to be driven by short term results and greed. In much the same way incidentally as the bankers who got us in this mess were.

    It’s surprising how otherwise intelligent men gripped by a gambling addiction can make such irrational decisions even though they are fully aware of the likely disastrous consequences of their actions. The power of greed and risk-fueled excitement is responsible for some quite astonishing decisions, specially when the stakes are high.

    It will all end in tears. As it always does.

    FunkyDunc
    Member

    The only reason for this being introduced is to save money ie to reduce wages in already poor parts of the UK. So you will get poorly skilled teachers/docs etc in poor areas etc, exactly what you don’t want.

    You can see it already working in the private sector. Bradford is right next to Leeds. Wages in Leeds tend to be £1-2k higher than Bradford. Leeds attracts better skilled workers and more industry.

    Non Stop Nun
    Member

    Lib Dems RIP 😆 your leader has just let the city he is MP for just get shafted carnt see them voting him back in.

    Non Stop Nun
    Member

    So after this what will be next in the great Tory cut backs as it now seems call me Dave was lieing when he said we are all in this together, will the south get more dole money than the north ?

    Premier Icon teamhurtmore
    Subscriber

    Well this is going to be an interesting one to watch!

    Tories relatively predictable. Broadly trends in public sector should mirror trends in private sector etc. Question, did they leak in order to soften actual news in budget?

    Lib Dems hard to see. VC arguing that flexibility in public sector deals must make some sense. Did they leak though? Dangerous strategy if Osbourne ignores them and they then look even more impotent.

    Labour face a tricky one. Having supported the notion before in government, Ed Balls, “of course, pay needs to reflect local circumstances.”……One size National caps do not work in practice (same logic?)….But today, a different story!!!! Hmmmm?

    Labour policy in government regarding public sector pay:

    Uk gov pay policy based on three principles: (1) Affordability; (2) flexibility to set pay in line with regional economic and labour market conditions; (3) Performance.

    Ok so this was dear old Tony but an interesting historical context!

    Premier Icon bruneep
    Subscriber

    So why not relocated Westminster to say Bradford. Then we can pay mp’s the going rate for that area.

    julianwilson
    Member

    IIRC Ashby-de-la-Zouch is our geographical centre. (that’s why so many people make crisps nearby, fact fans). Let’s move Westminster there. Pubs are a lot cheaper round there too. Win win situation IME. 😀

    Premier Icon ahwiles
    Subscriber

    Lib Dems RIP your leader has just let the city he is MP for just get shafted carnt see them voting him back in.

    cleggy isn’t the MP for sheffield, he’s the MP for an area of sheffield.

    (he’s my MP)

    i won’t be surprised if my next MP is labour, but i’ll be voting green.

    csb
    Member

    bruneep – Member
    So why not relocated Westminster to say Bradford. Then we can pay mp’s the going rate for that area.

    Haha. But there’s a strengthening case for Departments (the staff) to be relocated to the regions to save money. Bit like the BBC move to Salford.

    druidh
    Member

    Labour will do what they always do; whinge about the change and then when (if) they get into power, conveniently forget about it.

    Premier Icon bruneep
    Subscriber

    druidh – Member
    Labour the opposition will do what they always do; whinge about the change and then when (if) they get into power, conveniently forget about it.

    ernie_lynch
    Member

    That’s very true bruneep. Staggeringly, Ed Miliband has even publicly announced that whilst he intends to oppose the government’s spending cuts he has no intention to reverse them should he become PM after the next election. That level of honesty has never before been witnessed imo.

    Tony Blair opposed every single privatisation carried out by Tory governments, without exception. But once he became PM one of the first things he decided was that the Tories hadn’t privatised enough and he carried out his own privatisation programme. Only he never told us he was going to do that.

    Likewise the Tories don’t intend to reverse any of the fundamental things which New Labour did – in fact if anything, they intend to build on them.

    And don’t even mention the Liberal Democrats.

    All of which goes to show that Britain isn’t really that fundamentally different to a one party state.
    Just a one party state which meets with the benign approval of the electorate.

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