I know you’ll all say Flow cos you’re all suffering Stan’s fever. The whole world is.

I need a second set of wheels for bike no. 2. The OEM wheels I stuck on the mmmbop (Specialized DT 445D, 15 guage spokes, from my Pitch Pro) have suffered a little. Front wheel is fine, rear wheel has a couple of broken spokes.

My Pitch Pro has Hope Pro 11/DT 5.1 and they have been fine, though to be fair, I haven’t ridden them more than 500 miles or so.

I am a tad wary of Flow’s. I am not automatically just going to choose Stan’s Flows’s on Pro11’s just because they are as cheap as EN521’s. There is no way in hell that the Flow can possibly be as strong as the EN521. And I don’t want to give up tubes. I tear too many tires, even decent thicker ones, to start going down that funny road.

So, I weigh 15st, and I can use my 44t front and 12T or 13T rear on certain lengths of single track.. I am strong, but I am not jumping anything bigger than say 3ft.

The 500g-510g DT EX500 would likely be a more durable bet than the 460g Flow right?

I’ve just bought some Spank Subrosa Evo rims. I haven’t received them yet, but that may be another option look at.I know people who use them on both their DH and AM bikes, and at 520g, they aren’t that heavy.

For a Pitch, I’d go with Flows personally. Mine have been given almost the same use as my 721s, they do ding slightly easier but they seem just as strong, just a little softer (same way as my 729s dinged easier than the 721s)

(I got the 721s only because they were much cheaper used when I decided I wanted a second set of wheels for the big bike- if I could, I’d have 2 sets of Flows)

I’d be a little surprised if I get the same lifespan out of them… I’m not a wheel destroyer really, so it’s always the death of 1000 cuts that does mine in and I reckon the 721s will stand up to that slightly better. But my Flows are about 2 years old now, from mincy XC to proper DH, and they show it a little but they have plenty of life.

I can’t speak for the DTs though, my only DT is an old 540 and I don’t think that’s a fair comparison to their improved models. It is not that good, but otoh it’s very easy to straighten out all the dings 😉

But you do seem to have made your decision about the flows tbh. They are IMO just a better design than the Mavics, which used to be amazing but are just a bit stuck in the past. Sooner or later Mavic’ll catch up I think but they don’t seem bothered as people still buy them.

That’s good to know..

I can’t consider the Subrosa cos this Hope Hoop Pair price is too good to miss. Shop hasn’t yet shifted up the price of Hope like most have.

Basically the Pro 2 Hope 5.1 will migrate on to the mmmbop. And the Pitch will get the new wheelset. So if anything I am most likely to go same again with DT, or even the EN521. To me it seems counter intuitive to start thinking about sub 500g rims again… and the Flow is a sub 500g rim.. unless you get it in white..

Maybe I’ll go DT again.. why have they suddenly gone out of vogue?

The old DT 540 was essentially the older 5.1 with pinned not welded joint. The +30g or so was the weight of the 540’s pins..

Probably not much help but I have EN521s on Hope Pro IIs on my MmmBop and ridden a mix of XC and local DH and they’ve been super tough so far. I am 10.5st though and a fairly smooth rider but they’ve been clattered through rock gardens and cased the odd double and still fine.

EN521s on my bike too….not glamourous but cheap and very solid.

Maybe I’ll go DT again.. why have they suddenly gone out of vogue?

Cos whilst DT make hubs with all the precision and craftsmanship of the finest Swiss watches, they make their rims out of the finest Swiss Cheese. They dent and ding way too easily IMO, and they’re a right faff getting tyres on and off in comparison to other rims too.

Don’t get held up on the weight thing. Flows may be lighter, but it’s less than 10% of the overall rim weight, it’s not drastic. They seem plenty strong enough too, though still slightly softer than Mavic’s.

Mavic EN521 are a great “budget” (Christ I remember when £30 a rim was expensive!) rim, especially as they’re the same width as 721’s and they’re still welded not pinned. Being Mavic, they’re stiffer and less prone to damage than either DT Swiss or Stans rims, ad they’re only 540g each still. Pretty much the only “new” rim design in mountain biking that Mavic has brought out since about 2003 too, everything else only being cosmetically updated since way back when…

FWIW, I’d buy the Flow’s myself, but that’s cos to me the ease of setting up tubeless and the slight weight saving would be the important points. You say you don’t want tubeless and you’re worried about the rim being too light…

Anyway… Without wishing to hijack, I’ve got an immaculate pair of DT Swiss FR440 hubs laced onto Mavic EN521’s with DT comp spokes (all in black) I’m trying to sell at the moment. Very little use (maybe 10-12 rides), and I’m selling as I don’t have a bike suited for them any more… I’ve gone all “XC” in my old age! If you’re interested drop me an email, they’ll be cheaper than a new set of Hope’s too as well as being a significantly better hub design.

what kind of price you thinking? ballpark…

£220 is what I was after

Email me (address in profile) though for more info etc.

Pretty much the only “new” rim design in mountain biking that Mavic has brought out since about 2003 too

I was about to disagree but remembered the EN321 isn’t the EN521, the 321 was the old 219.

No idea what I’ll get if/when my old DT4.2′ eventualy die on the XC bike, but the en321’s will probably be like for like.

Not convinced by stans either, a lighter rim, made without eyelets from the same material, and they claim its as strong/stronger, seems suspect! They’re not even aboutique brand, they part of the sun-ringle-haynes empire so why they cost 2x what mavic charges for a standard rim is beyond me when the mavic equivalent priced tubeless rim has an undrilled rim and clever eyelets/nipples!

It’s clever marketing. That’s all. Look how many people blindly choose the Stan’s because they think they are getting more of a bargain when built as Hope Hoops. Why would Hope or the shops that sell Hope Hoops sell all their wheel options for the same price if Stan’s were genuinely up to twice as expensive as other rims? DT did exactly the same when they hit the market, charge more than Mavic, therefore increase percieved value. Having said that, living costs are higher in Switzerland than France so maybe DT do cost more to make than Mavic.

I weigh 15stone, weight of rider has a direct relationship to spoke tension, spoke tension is less on a non-eyeletted rim. For this reason they just can’t be stronger than an equivalent Sun, DT, or Mavic with eyelets. I don’t doubt they are a good rim, but I do doubt they are as robust or have the life cycle of a Mavic or DT. My DT 5.1’s are not soft.. so not sure where that rumour came from… if I was made of money I’d choose Stan’s perhaps.. but I am not.. I want my Hope Hoops to go 3 or 4 years at least..

I’d be happier with a Stan’s if they had eyelets. But then this is how they appear lighter..