I agree with big and daft, which must a first, the story sounds like bollock to me.

“There’s good reason for believing the real story here is that it is the Conservatives who have approached the Palace about shoring up a potential Tory minority government that cannot command a majority”.[/b]

The ‘good reason’ probably being that the author wants to whip up a scare story about an alleged possible coup.

There is no reasonable possibility imo that the Queen would be a willing party to a plot to “subvert the democratic will of the people” and on that basis, and in the absence of any actual real evidence, I don’t believe that Cameron has approached the Queen with that in mind.

Election campaigns are best fought focusing on facts and not innuendos and factless scaremongering, something which I have grown to expect the Tories to do, not their opponents.

big_n_daft – Member

it’s not exactly an order to all the Queen’s armies is it?

I think you might be misunderstanding your own post 😕

I happen to agree, but that was answering BnDs question regarding where this story had come from.

I agree that the Cameron/Queenie get together is likely a work of fiction.I nearly posted earlier that while everyone is looking internally about the possibilities/ramifications of a minority government and whether another election may be called then imho external foreign affairs are far more likely to influence things.If Putin makes a move or there’s another another middle eastern crisis with splits between the main parties on what to do then what happens? The Royal family have a track record if this is to be believed http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_general_election,_1951

Touching to have the hand of friendship extended to us all – will our watches be still there when we let go?

It’s interesting that the DUP, of all people, have come out today complaining about the way the other parties, especially the Tories, have been implying that Scottish MP’s are somehow 2nd class and aren’t entitled to take part in government decision making.

I think you’ll find epicsteve that the Tories don’t have a problem with “Scottish MPs”, they appear to have a problem SNP MPs. There can be a significant difference between the two..

I’m sure Cameron would very happily work with Scottish Tory MPs, he might even give one a ministerial position.

I think you’ll find epicsteve that the Tories don’t have a problem with “Scottish MPs”, they appear to have a problem SNP MPs. There can be a significant difference between the two..

Their buddies in the DUP don’t seem to think so – they’re even going so far as suggesting they might pull their support for the Tories due to their apparent disregard for the democratic process.

Of course the truth is that the Tories don’t really give a shit one way or the other, as the vote in Scotland makes little difference to their chances of ruling the UK, as that relies almost 100% on them gaining enough seats in England alone to form a UK wide majority. Instead they’re using the SNP as a stick to beat Labour with, by winding up anti-SNP/Scotland sentiment in England. To an extent it’s working because Millband and Labour are playing into their hands. All Labour needs to do is say that they’re willing to do a deal with SNP, but that the one thing they won’t agree to is another independence referendum in the life of the parliament (which the SNP aren’t asking for anyway). I understand that has difficulties for them because they’re holding onto the hope of gaining some ground back in Scotland (although it appears the gap has actually widened) – however Millband saying he won’t have anything to do with the SNP (and making it look like it’s just his decision) is counterproductive. Maybe it will even cost him his job if Labour come 2nd to the Tories?

Poll on Newsnight to say people are nearly as worried about the SNP being in power as part of a coalition as they are about UKIP

Poll on Newsnight to say people are nearly as worried about the SNP being in power as part of a coalition as they are about UKIP

The Westminster parties are doing the SNP’s work for them. I suspect if there was another independence poll now it’d be a lot closer that the last one, without the SNP having to life a finger.

Their buddies in the DUP don’t seem to think so – they’re even going so far as suggesting they might pull their support for the Tories due to their apparent disregard for the democratic process.

Well it depends what they are referring to (I haven’t seen the news story) If they are claiming that the Tories think Scottish MPs “aren’t entitled to take part in government decision making” then my point stands.

If however they are claiming that the Tories see Scottish MPs as “somehow 2nd class” with regards to the west lothian question and not having the same voting rights then that’s quite different.

And I personally have to agree with that, ie, I see no reason why Scottish MPs should have the same voting rights as English MPs on matters such as health, education, housing, environment, and so on.

But the real solution, the democratic solution, is to have English regional parliaments, or at the very least an English parliament. And that would leave all Westminster MPs with equal voting rights. As it should be, imo.

I’m sure Cameron would very happily work with Scottish Tory MPs, he might even give one a ministerial position.

Well, he would struggle to find 2…boom tish…

Local Farmers up here are know as the Mearns royalty, and that isn’t a compliment either. The pleading billboards have appeared in the fields asking folks to put aside party loyalty and save the union. 😀

Ah, I’ve just read the DUP/Tory news story and it’s the second point I was making concerning the west lothian question and not having the same voting rights :

“Glib and lazy talk about SNP MPs somehow not being as entitled to vote in every division in the Commons as any other British MP, simply fuels nationalist paranoia”.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-32479185

But to fair this won’t be the first time that the DUP has fallen out with the Tories, or the worse fall out. The previous Tory Prime Minister was labeled a liar by the former DUP leader.

Own up THM and Jam,which one of you wrote Cameron’s speech? 🙂
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-32491643

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpprOGsLWUo[/video]

Any excuse for a Costello song @duckman. The speech was a cringe fest.

Ed Milliband went rownd brandz haus last night for a chat didn’t ee

Alex Salmond has set up a company to accept his book profits and avoid paying top rates of tax and national insurance on the earnings. Perfectly legal tax avoidance.

So that’s why the DO wanted to cut corporation tax too!! 😉

You don’t have to make it up

If however they are claiming that the Tories see Scottish MPs as “somehow 2nd class” with regards to the west lothian question and not having the same voting rights then that’s quite different.

The latter seemed to be what they were pointing to.

And I personally have to agree with that, ie, I see no reason why Scottish MPs should have the same voting rights as English MPs on matters such as health, education, housing, environment, and so on.

Well it’ll make for an interesting UK government as we could well see the following:

UK government: Some kind of loose Labour led coalition
England: A majority of Tory MP’s
Scotland: A majority of SNP MP’s
Wales: A majority of Labour MP’s
NI: Not really relevant to the rest of the UK parties

So we could well end up with a system where the party that controls the UK government actually has very little power and perhaps be seen as having little legitimacy in most of the UK.

Forum names changed, I wonder if anyone will notice it’s still me 8)

@epic, the Tories have thought of that in proposing EVEL, there are scenarios where what you say could come to be although typically the party with a majority in England is the one who forms the government.

Both Jam + THM name changes, at the same time…..

Hmmm….

Ever seen in the same room together ? 🙂

😀

A forum snafu I see!

Andrew Bird – Member

@epic, the Tories have thought of that in proposing EVEL, there are scenarios where what you say could come to be although typically the party with a majority in England is the one who forms the government.

I’m all for EVEL.

But it should be in an English Parliament, not the UK one.

’tis fun though – have you seen the other thread 🙂

It is fun…

😀

Not wearing off yet.

Off to change it back as I would hate to be stuck with that.

Damn, missed all the fun. What happened to the names?

Anyway back to the business of the thread. The IFS have been looking at the Labour (and SNP, Green, Lib Dem?) policy of increasing the top rate of tax to 50%.

IFS says on paper Labour’s 50p rate will raise £3.6bn. But once behavioural changes taken into account, likely yield £110m.

This is the tricky part with tax policy and budgets, you do an overly simple back of the envelope calculation and get £3.6bn. You then spend that money on new commitments. At the end of the year you discover there is a £3.5bn hole, you can’t reverse the spending at that was a political commitment, you can’t put the taxes down as that’s too embarrassing.

Have the IFS actually provided their reasoning because otherwise it’s as fanciful as Labour, Tory and most other parties’ spending plans.

Besides, aren’t the IFS fairly clearly right leaning and typically going to align with Tory ideology?

JY, I think we both know there is little chance of you coming up with an explanation of why Alex Salmond has been hidden away to counter my assertion he’s electoral poison. Aside from that being very difficult its a request from me which makes it doubly hard for you 😕

And I personally have to agree with that, ie, I see no reason why Scottish MPs should have the same voting rights as English MPs on matters such as health, education, housing, environment, and so on.

Why not? Decisions taken on all of those things in England have an effect on Scotland’s ability to provide services.

@nemesis – I will do some research over lunch, I am enough of an anorak to search out the press releases. Behavoural change can be really significant especially around “emotional” trigger levels like 50%, I have posted on it before as has @tmh who loves to quote the academic research on the topic. There are also material changes in spending habits and certain “luxury” items / businesses get really badly impacted. The introduction of luxury VAT at 25% vs normal at 15% killed most of the UK boat building industry, that’s a lot of working people in trades and support businesses which suffer. UK buyers liked to buy UK boats, now they buy French, Scandinavian and Italy boats. All these economic impacts can be really significant and hard to reverse.

@wanman, so the English should be able to vote on those things in Holyrood for the same reason. The SNP argument is just like “have their cake and eat it” with regard to the currency and many other things during the referendum. The SNP just adopts a PITA on whatever it can whenever it can. It makes no sense for them to vote on English taxes or NHS spending, Barnet formula or not.

Possibly the best outcome of this election is if there is an SNP/Labour deal.
Scotland gets Full Fiscal Autonomy – stops the whining from both sides, and lays any separation issue to bed for at least a generation (most would be happier with that than independence IMO)
England gets its own parliaments completely separate from Westminster on the same basis as Scotland, as do Wales and NI.
The House of Lords gets abolished.
Our Nuclear suicide weapon gets dismantled (or at least our leaders give an undertaking to be on the surface with their families if the button is pressed. 🙂 )
And the Paedophile Protection Society gets cleaned up.

Besides, aren’t the IFS fairly clearly right leaning and typically going to align with Tory ideology?

No they are supposed to be independent and they’ve had Labour and Lib Dems on the board.

Anyone else think the Milliband and Russell Brand thing weird, who ever advises him on PR is nuts.

Alex Salmond has set up a company to accept his book profits and avoid paying top rates of tax and national insurance on the earnings. Perfectly legal tax avoidance.

I assume you [ and THM] are praising him then for doing what you would recommend? I believe you are big fans of folk doing this so he has gone up in your esteem?
You could not possibly be both trying to throw mud for him doing something you would defend could you….of course not as you both have integrity….must be another reason that I cannot quite see.

So the IFS have said that raising the tax threshold will raise tax IMAGINE.

What did they say about the tory claims about how they would cut the welfare budget without specifying where the cuts came from then? Or save money by other ill defined Budget cuts/savings?

TBH these “debates” are just folk cheery picking [ me included] any data they find to fuel their confirmation bias

THE IFS were pretty balanced in saying all the parties plans were full of holes but you focus only on the parties you dislike.

Have to say that while there’s not much that jambalaya posts that I agree with, I do tend to agree that Salmond has been deliberately kept out of the spotlight by the SNP while the Tories keep trying to shine the light on him.

As I see it, the SNP’s goal is still for independence even if it’s a way off in the future. To achieve that they need power/leverage and the best way to achieve that right now is to be in a coalition be it formal or not.

As such, ensuring that the SNP is not viewed excessively negatively outside of Scotland is important. If they did become the electoral poison that the right would like to claim they are (and are attempting to paint the picture of), there would be significantly less chance of them getting into a position of coalition – Labour are well aware of how badly coalition can turn out for a party having seen the LibDems made to look rather naive by the tories over the last five years and lost considerable support. As such, keeping Salmond out of the limelight is a valid and IMO the correct tactic for them to pursue.

And come to think of it, unpleasant as it often is, pushing the scare stories about the SNP/Salmond is probably tactically (if not ethically) the right way for the tories to play it.

EDIT – just noticed, 600!