And just with dobbo, what, precisely, does this have to do with immigration to the UK, neilferther?

If you were concerned about immigration to Pakistan, then I’d understand.

The immigration over the last few years runs into many millions. I live in London. London had a population of about 8 million. It is now unusual to hear a British accent in my home town.

My daughter is not an immigrant, she was born approximately a foot from where I sit. She doesn’t have a British accent; indeed she predominantly does not speak English. Granted she is only 2. Am I to hope that when she grows up she will lose touch with part of her roots? Or is she allowed to speak with a slightly different accent and use words you won’t understand? Is this tolerance?

@neilf – Out of interest by immigrants do you mean *all* immigrants including those from the US, Australia, Western Europe etc or just those with a certain colour of skin and a propensity to pray facing Eastward?

At RichPenny – Apologies if my views on Catholicism distasteful but I personally I find any religion where its head openly preaches against homosexuality, the use of condoms in situations where they would be of clear benefit to the health and wellbeing of whole nations as well as the individuals therein, has huge inequalities between men and women and a church as an organisation that has for years and years covered up child abuse and has protected those who have committed such acts pretty offensive.

Cheers

Danny B

And just with dobbo, what, precisely, does this have to do with immigration to the UK, neilferther?

jamj1974 – Member
….the vast, vast majority of Muslims I have met don’t want to live in a Muslim country either.

Just continuing topics raised EARLIER in the thread………. maybe ask the originator of the subject jamj1974 why he raised it.

The immigration over the last few years runs into many millions. I live in London. London had a population of about 8 million. It is now unusual to hear a British accent in my home town.

And many have left. Who decides what the population of London should be? Who decides what accents they have and what languages they speak? No one. It’s a natural, organic thing which evolves. Why is it important that people speak with a British accent? Where do you draw the line? I’m from Newcastle, would I be welcome with my geordie twang?

I am saying uncontrolled immigration is not a good idea. There are only so many jobs, so many places in schools, and a limited amount of money available for the NHS.

Even if you were right on jobs etc, which I would dispute, who decides whether ‘locals’ should get priority for jobs, schools, services etc? If immigrants pay taxes, contribute to society, abide by the law etc, they should get equal access to all of these things. And the NHS thing is ridiculous. If you’re against immigration because of potential increased impact on NHS resources, then logically you should also be against ageing?

Do you really think that Britain was insular, homogenous and conformist?

Of course not. Immigration is ingrained into the culture and history of this country. It’s not a new thing. The only thing that has changed is the attitudes of people like yourself who are easily led by the media and others into thinking that people who do not speak or look the same are somehow less entitled to live or work in a particular place.

Just continuing topics raised EARLIER in the thread……….

But why, if you’re unable or unwilling to defend them?

You seem to think race , multiculturalism and Muslim are not an intersecting set and claim it is fallacious to suggest otherwise. I disagree and the reasons should be pretty obvious but perhaps you could use the example of the Jews

I would suggest that someone has already done a considerable amount of research into whether Jewish people were an identifiable race, that had specific identifiable characteristics and his results showed up somewhat lacking, and we pretty much accept that he, and his parties theories were flawed – however more recent research pisses on your chips as well:

http://forward.com/articles/175912/jews-a-race-genetic-theory-comes-under-fierce-atta/

You weren’t talking about Catholicism, you were talking about Catholics. I share plenty of your distaste for the religion, but am happy to treat individual people as I find them. They are not the same thing in my experience.

@neilf

And lets not forget as a nation we do have a great track record of turning up and being respectful to the culture of other people’s countries either.

Pretty sure the Aboriginals in Australia for example would have quite like to be able to walk down their street (so to speak) and not get murdered by English immigrants and to have other really rather unpleasant things done to them.

We could also mention the slave trade and a whole host of other historical nasties and I just think we should be careful before we bang on about how Unbritish or Unenglish these fine lands have become.

I was going to say pot, kettle etc but probably in poor taste on such a thread.

Cheers

Danny B

@RP – would you not consider a person following an intolerant religion as, by definition intolerant (assuming of course that they are devout)?

If they have chosen to take a more liberal line when it comes to same sex couples etc then are they truly Catholic?

Cheers

Danny B

But why, if you’re unable or unwilling to defend them?

Defend what? What is there to defend in what I made as an observation, you tried to imply some complete irrelevance in to what I wrote.

trying falsely connect conditions in countries that aren’t the UK with immigration to the UK.

Whats that got to do with a religious group not wanting to live in country ruled by there religion? I mentioned nothing about immigration or conditions, I don’t even know what you mean by conditions, material or religious?

jamj1974 still hasn’t given any reply as to why they don’t want to live in muslim countries yet.

My story from Pakistan merely illustrated what life is like in most Muslim countries I have seen, thus illustrating why so many Muslims would rather not live in a Muslim country.
I think immigration should be strictly controlled because we do not have the resources on this tiny island to support an infinite number of people. Also, I do not want to be in a minority in my own home.

That would include controls on people of any nationality. Not just ones with skin colour or cultural beliefs that are different to mine.

I think immigration should be restricted to people who have particular skills that we desperately need.

Zokes: Yes, I am aware of the irony, although I did not have a choice in the matter at the time.

Lovely blue sky outside at the mo.

Also, I do not want to be in a minority in my own home.

do you really believe that to be a possibility..?
if so, what has led you to that conclusion..?

We could also mention the slave trade and a whole host of other historical nasties and I just think we should be careful before we bang on about how Unbritish or Unenglish these fine lands have become.

Slavery was a fact of life in all cultures throughout the world. British traders buying slaves from African markets is unremarkable.

What is remarkable is the British bringing an end to slavery.

Yunki: The primary school I attended now has 100% Asian children. They do not celebrate any Christian beliefs. They do not celebrate Christmas or Easter.

So what? you might say. I am not religious either, but Christian values are quite important to our way of life. Would you send your children to a 100% Asian school? To be educated with Muslim values?
(Obviously it wouldn’t be 100% Asian then, but you get my point)

I think immigration should be strictly controlled because we do not have the resources on this tiny island to support an infinite number of people. Also, I do not want to be in a minority in my own home.

There you go again with the silly comments. Infinite? Don’t be ridiculous! And minority of what? And why do you think you have any say in this? And what makes it ‘your’ home specifically? What’s to stop me moving there and calling it my home? Or anyone else for that matter? And what does it matter where I or others come from?

I am not sure we can absolve ourselves of all sins because others were doing it nor pat ourselves to much in the back for eventually ceasing the trade. It is nothing to be proud of unless we had never partaken though thiose who campaigned for the ending have my respect.

we do not have the resources on this tiny island to support an infinite number of people.

I think we can all agree that our island has finite resources but your use of language is constantly to suggest floods and waves and overwhelming numbers when the reality is it that it is a trickle

Also, I do not want to be in a minority in my own home

They wont make them all live in your house

@neilf – a very significant number Asians are not Muslim (China, Japan, huge swathes of India etc). Being Asian does not equal being a Muslim.

Also, are they really being educated in Muslim values as that would somewhat contradict the national curriculum. Unless it is now a faith school of course but then its religious leaning would be understandable.

Cheers

Danny B

I am not sure we can absolve ourselves of all sins because others were doing it nor pat ourselves to much in the back for eventually ceasing the trade

Of course we can. We led the world in establishing human rights. You can’t do any more than that.

The primary school I attended now has 100% Asian children. They do not celebrate any Christian beliefs. They do not celebrate Christmas or Easter.

Could you name it as the national curriculum clearly states that their should be a daily act of worship christian in nature

Behave mate this is daily Mail headline grabbing Pc dogooders ban christmas lights because muslamic swans made them

Link to the now 100% “Asian” school please

So what? you might say. I am not religious either, but Christian values are quite important to our way of life.

What values you dont adhere to are important …why not adapt some Muslims ones then as you dont believe that religion either….where the harm seems you enjoy doing things you dont believe in

Would you send your children to a 100% Asian school?

Is it a good school? the ethnic makeup is irrelevant to me tbh

To be educated with Muslim values?

I would not send my child to any religious school

The EDL are comprised of a multiply deprived people, not least in the complete absence of irony in their thinking (as we can see again on this thread).

Invading city centres to stage violent protests? Attacking the police force? Sieg Heil-ing with a peace sign?

It’s just a compendium of idiocy.

When they came to Sheffield they were prevented from making a symbolic march to the war memorial by Sheffield residents and protest groups. The next week they came back staging a ‘national’ conference of bone-headed fascists.

Dissatisfied that they had not caused enough trouble for the residents of Sheffield, they rampaged through the city and stormed the University, invoking a campus-wide lock-down. As someone commented on Twitter, ‘don’t worry, they’re only rounding up the intellectuals and Jews’.

Despite the blatant idiocy, this is a dangerous organisation, and should not be ignored or underestimated. They need to be opposed in every venue of our society to prevent the creeping British intolerance from being turned into racist witch-hunting.

@RP – would you not consider a person following an intolerant religion as, by definition intolerant (assuming of course that they are devout)?

No I wouldn’t. Even the devout can be challenged on their beliefs, since religion is often a comforting cornerstone of society. Religions are as much cultural structures as they are spiritual. As such, I consider it healthier to approach an individual with an open mind rather than condemning them as intolerant. We have had millennia of religion shaping our culture, I would like to see it the other way round.

If they have chosen to take a more liberal line when it comes to same sex couples etc then are they truly Catholic?

I think so. People themselves can define what they are. The church seems satisfied to accept people with a wide range of beliefs without too many people being thrown out. As before, I would prefer more liberals within the church.

BTW, regarding the AIDS crisis in Africa, the influence of the Church is interesting. If the church is able to convince an entire continent that birth control is wrong, why is it unable to convince people of the benefits of abstinence outside marriage?

Zokes: I can hardly be bothered to answer your post. If we have uncontrolled immigration, then yes, an infinite number of people can come here. I hope they all come and swamp Newcastle. I hope you suffer the same level of violent crime that London has endured.
Its my home because I live here. That makes it my home.
You like to use the term bigot. A bigot is someone who will not listen to, or is intolerant of another persons views. You are not listening to mine or anyone else’s.
You read my post and scream “racist bigot”

We led the world in establishing human rights. stopping human rights abuses we were a heavily involved in. You can’t do any more than that. better than that would have been to have not done that

TBH I get your point yes what we did in ending slavery was the key and critical move in stopping it and it was clearly the right thing to do. Yes we deserve some credit for it. However stopping doing a bad thing does not make you a goodie.

the reality is it that it is a trickle

3.91 million non-British long term immigrants to the UK in the decade 1997-2006

By 2006 Foreign-born persons accounted for about 10% of the population (and about 12% of the working-age population aged 16-64).

Trickle?

If we have uncontrolled immigration, then yes, an infinite number of people can come here.

We would need an infinite number of people on the planet and even if we do they would not all fit so an infinite amount of people can NEVER come here

A bigot is someone who will not listen to, or is intolerant of another persons views.

a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance

Thats you that is

You are not listening to mine or anyone else’s.

Yes you are the victim of extremists views here oppressing you 🙄

Are you trying to justify the existence of the EDL by your immigration ‘debate’?

It all plays into their hands.

Condemn the fascists. The EDL are the new face of the far-right. Move on.

Junkyard: I was answering Yunkis post. Of course the website is not going to advertise themselves as 100% Asian. Perhaps one or two Eastern European children go there now. The parents association is certainly 100% Asian.
I made the point in answer to Yunki’s question. What makes me think I am in danger of becoming a minority?

How are you going to send your children to a non religious skool if it is the law of the land to have Christian services?

I hope you suffer the same level of violent crime that London has endured.

Wonderful. So now you’re pinning all violent crime in London on immigrants! Really mate, if you’re going to spout rubbish like this at least give up with the ‘I’m not racist, but’ pretence. And I live in Manchester by the way (and my name’s not Zokes!), which is a wonderfully diverse, ethnically and culturally mixed place to live, where for the most part, we all get on and you can walk down the road without being beaten up by an immigrant. It’s also largely free of neanderthal EDL apologists thankfully.

Its my home because I live here. That makes it my home.

They live there too. Does that make it their home too?

5thElefant – Member

We led the world in establishing human rights. You can’t do any more than that.

Oh how quaint this narrow British-centric view of history is 🙂

You’ll note that the Declaration of the Rights of Man isn’t written in English :

And that icon of human rights, the Statue of Liberty, was a gift from the people of France, not the people of Britain.

Yes Britain played a vital and leading role, but it was far from unique. And it mercilessly put down rebellion within its empire through repression and persecution. It was Britain’s exceptional talents in controlling subjugated populations that led it to create the world’s first concentration camps. Hitler was particularly impressed with Britain’s ability to control such a vast number of people in India with so few men that he used it as an example for Nazi conquered lands.

Q. Why would Muslims not want to live in a ‘Muslim’ country.

A1. They are not originally from Muslim countries
A2. They prefer a secular government
A3. They like a cosmopolitan and diverse culture to live within
A4. They do not see the rule of law and religion as synonymous

@neilf – apologies, you are confusing me now. Is the school you mention 100% Asian or 100% Muslim (or indeed both). If both are you 100% sure that no Hindu’s or Sikhs have snuck in (Sikhs are easy to spot BTW – they’re the ones who wear rolled up tea-towels on their heads, also known as a turban) have snuck in for example.

If 100% Asian are you sure none of the kids there were born in Asia and not in England thus making them English (same applies to the parents).

And are none of them Somali or the like which would make them African?

Cheers

Danny B

All this talk

its easier just to have a massive big ruck and get it all done with

It was Britain’s exceptional talents in controlling subjugated populations that led it to create the world’s first concentration camps.

And British public opinion put an end to them.

The empire worked with such few men because it wasn’t based on subjugation. There were more plus sides to being part of the empire than downsides. Exactly the same model as the roman empire. We brought technology, infrastructure and trade.

We brought technology, infrastructure and trade.

What about aqueducts?

For me it comes down to simply this, seriously how can anyone defend the idea that intolerance is acceptable?

What about aqueducts?

And sanitation.

The empire worked with such few men because it wasn’t based on subjugation.

😀 The British were universally loved throughout India !

They didn’t want us to leave …… gawd bless’em !

Of course the website is not going to advertise themselves as 100% Asian.

Well just name the school and I will see what Ofstead said and corroborate your story…what school is it?

Perhaps one or two Eastern European children go there now. The parents association is certainly 100% Asian.

you would think white people would care for the school as much as they do …shameful behaviour of the aboriginal indigenous population

There were more plus sides to being part of the empire than downsides.

I wonder why so many expelled and fought against us …how **** ungrateful some of those lucky bastards were eh

We brought technology, infrastructure and trade so that we could exploit the shit out of all your resources and make shits loads of money. if you benefited it was purely by accident .

FTFY