My other point was I would rather it had been done as a basis for an integrated system not stand alone.

If that means limiting the scope of phase one further then so be it. Id rather they had done a link from the town centre to the airport properly and forgot about anything else until phase two.

can you imagine the over spend on the new forth crossing the conservative estimate for it is £1200 million to start with 😯

TandemJeremy – Member
I would say that its more likely that its about wrong priorities( from my point of view) and a lack of imagination / ambition.

At teh airport end I bet its so as not to inconvenience car drivers

Have you actually seen where it is? Extending it a hundred metres or so would have made no difference to the provision for motor vehicles.

If that means limiting the scope of phase one further then so be it. Id rather they had done a link from the town centre to the airport properly and forgot about anything else until phase two.

But the cost case needed the additional passenger numbers from Leith/Newhaven to even get close to being feasible.

Oh – I forgot. You don’t care about the cost case……..

unless it’s an uplift for Innerleithen.

myheadsashed – Member
can you imagine the over spend on the new forth crossing the conservative estimate for it is £1200 million to start with

Can you actually see it going ahead in these times of austerity?

Ho hum – Member

Can you actually see it going ahead in these times of austerity?

I don’t think there’s much of an alternative.

druidh – Member
I don’t think there’s much of an alternative.

Agreed.

But something is going to have to give in the Scottish budget if this hugely expensive capital project goes ahead.

If it does then I can not see it being free like the existing bridge.

I guess that 20 years of designing traffic management systems to cause the maximimun amount of stationary traffic through out the city and p**s off the most amount of comuters was maybe not the best preparation for a major engineering project like this, where you are trying to set up a system that needs to work!!
The project managing on the tram project has been atrocious: I’m sure Mittelfinger, or whatever they are called had a contract document several hundred pages long and I don’t imagine anyone at Tie actually read/understood any of it! 😈

I’m keen to understand why going north of the border seems to spell doom for programme and cost on major projects. The reality is if the very public contractor disputes and spiralling costs hadn’t happened, there would be far less bad press and ill feeling about the trams (arguments about distance to airport terminal aside).

Contrary to popular belief, the UK is completely capable of pulling off big construction. The Dome and Wembley are history now; T5 and the Olympics finished/are finishing on programme and budget.

Edit: I believe the M74 JV is well ahead, so maybe it’s just the East 😉

Edit2: Though the M74 should have been done years ago!

Brycey – Member
I’m keen to understand why going north of the border seems to spell doom for programme and cost on major projects.

??

Like Concorde, the A400M, Channel Tunnel, Kings Cross, Broadcasting House….

…and why are you discounting the Dome and Wembley?

Sorry I’m talking recent-ish history (last 10 years or so).

It’s Edinburgh Shi**y Council that cause all the problems.

Brycey – Member
Sorry I’m talking recent-ish history (last 10 years or so).

New Wembley Stadium – constructed 2003 – 2007.

Not sure what your point is Druidh; Wembley was a shambles from start to finish.

And the last time I looked, it was in London.

Brycey – Member
I’m keen to understand why going north of the border seems to spell doom for programme and cost on major projects

I have no idea if they should scrap the tram system, I haven’t looked at what’s been done and don’t know how much more is needed to finish it. That said what ever the innitial cost x it by 10, is it still viable?

However I have said this before and will continue to say it, if you have incompetent @ssholes in charge of the world, you should get used to shit happening!!!

Have a great weekend, if you can!

My point Druidh is this:

In recent years the UK construction industry seems to have got it’s act together when delivering large projects such as T5 and the Olympics. This is in contrast to public perception of recent history when jobs like Wembley stadium were unmitigated disasters.

In contrast, Scotland still seems to struggle, eg Scottish Parliament, Edinburgh trams – very public over spends and fall-outs.

I then went on to say that the M74 seems to contradict this as it’s going well.

Not an earth shattering post that’s going to change the course of mankind, just a Saturday afternoon musing. All clear now?

chickenman – Member

“I guess that 20 years of designing traffic management systems to cause the maximimun amount of stationary traffic through out the city and p**s off the most amount of comuters was maybe not the best preparation for a major engineering project like this”

You know what? I think it’s possible that also has something to do with the fact that there’s too many cars trying to get in and out of the city. Which is possibly a case for some sort of mass transport system.

Northwind – Member

You know what? I think it’s possible that also has something to do with the fact that there’s too many cars trying to get in and out of the city. Which is possibly a case for some sort of mass transport system.

Compared to many cities (UK and abroad), I actually don’t think Edinburgh is that bad in terms of car numbers and traffic. Maybe my expectations are lower than those of others.

Druidh – tried to drive in or out of the city to the west at rush hour recently? Can take an hour or more from the bypass to the centre. The main issues are the corridor to the west and a small area around the centre

TandemJeremy – Member
Druidh – tried to drive in or out of the city to the west at rush hour recently? Can take an hour or more from the bypass to the centre. The main issues are the corridor to the west and a small area around the centre

I drive / have driven a lot more than you TJ. The plain truth is that if it was that bad, fewer folk would do it.

The plain truth is that if it was that bad, fewer folk would do it.

You sure about that druidh? Not necessarily Edinburgh in particular, just car use in general. People just don’t consider other means of transport, you can see it happening as roads fill up and instead of thinking “oh hang on, this is getting silly, it’s taken an hour to go 5 miles” they think “the Government should do something, more roads need to be built”

Usual attitude is that everyone else should find some other means of transport so they can keep using the car!

Takes me 45 minutes to drive from muirhouse to the bypass during rush hour. The problem isnt really the volume of traffic, its the stupid way its managed and also they aggressive and poor driving standards.

Wow – can’t believe this one is still going!

I drive in about once a week. Takes me about 25 mins/ half an hour to get from Riccarton to Castle Terrace via Calder Road and West Approach Road, maybe 20-25 mins if I’m in for 0830 instead of 0900. Worst ever was about 45 mins when the Gorgie Road/ Balgreen Junction was shut by roadworks – that’s still dramatically less than the “hour or more” made up FACT that TJ quoted.

That said, cycling that takes about 20 mins by the same route (though Gorgie Road instead of WAR as no cycling on that).

Given the difference between school holidays and normal rush hour, I think I can safely say volume of traffic is the main problems. Even Fridays are generally easier than the rest of the week, presumably because people who work less than 5 days won’t do a Friday and more people get public transport so they can go for a scoop after work.

Drudh – I agree its odd that people do.

Have you actually tried to get out of the city to the west at rush hour? Its not uncommon for it to be an hour plus and the same to get in in the morning.

My mum did it for years – why I have no idea. She spent 3 hrs+ a day in a car and 1/3 of her salary on commuting.

Not a made up fact stu N. Actual observed fact.

Surely the solution is a congestion charge, a massive investment (though still tiny in comparison to the M74) in comprehensive segregated bike lanes and tell people to MTFU and get out of their cars?

I’m a huge fan of tram systems, though I confess I don’t know any of the specifics of Edinburgh’s. Are trams safer for cyclists than buses? I always imagined they would be as you know the exact route and, er, line choice they’re going to take.

3 hours a day? Seriously? Where was she starting and finishing? I just can’t see how it can regularly take her twice as long as it takes me at worst…

3 hrs + a day total travel. Probably nearer 4. Coming in from the A90 direction. I sat in the car many a time as it took around an hour to get from the a90 to the city centre.

I thought she was crackers to do this.

Remember to factor in the inaccuracy of your timepiece

Northwind: Yes fewer people should take their cars in to work: Lots of folk though, like myself, actually need to use a vehicle as part of their work and have you noticed that when the schools are on holiday that the traffic volume halves?
However, would you like a list of incompetently designed traffic systems in the town that cause congestion even when it’s not busy?
Stationary traffic next to Victoria Primary School at any time of the day; not quite Edinburgh, but have you seen Musselburgh high street: traffic queued up any time of the day because a 3 year old was put in charge of designing the traffic light phasing?
I could go on…

:(And another thing….
My son was at the local Primary School: It is a well thought of, well managed school that had out of catchment kids queuing to get in. A few years ago the Council (faced with cuts to the education budget) tried to close it, rather than a nearby rather run down, struggling comunity school. Now I’m sure the intention of the council was very well intentioned and also very P.C. but…..It is just this kind of wooly, well intentioned, upside-down logic that got the good city of Embra into the whole tram fiasco in the first place, and the same kind of wooly business accumen that was installed to oversee the project!

I drive in Edinburgh and other UK cities regularily. Despite what appear to be deliverate attempts by the council to introduce chaos over the last 20 years or so, Edinburgh is really not that bad. All the bigger cities I’ve driven in are worse, including Glasgow. Outside an hour or so of core commuting time in the morning, and again in the evening the roads are reasonably quiet.

Try driving into London, Manchester or Birmingham at rush hour for comparison!

The fundamental issue with the trams is that it’s far, far too expensive for a solution that only benefits a small proportion of the population. That’s even before over-runs and delays.

It’s a shame that it didn’t get put to a public vote like their other mad scheme the congestion charge. From informal discussions I think the tram scheme is actually significantly less popular than the congestion charge.

I would disagree on the glasgow traffic being worse thing.

You do also need to bare in mind that glasgow is 5 times the size of edinburgh too though.