US based but with relevance to everyone else really the US Forest service and Bureau of Land Management don’t appear to be fans.

We have had a few questions recently regarding whether or not it is legal to ride an electric mountain bike on Forest Service trails.

We didn’t know, so we asked the Flagstaff Ranger District. They provided these two documents.

In summary, e-bikes are treated as motor vehicles and are subject to all of the same laws and regulations as motor vehicles on Federal lands.
http://flagstaffbiking.org/us-forest-service-and-bureau-of-land-management-e-bike-policy/
http://flagstaffbiking.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/20150929EBikesBriefingPaper.pdf
http://flagstaffbiking.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/E-Bikes-on-Public-Lands-BLM-Field-Going-Notification-July2015.pdf

I suspect it won’t be long before more and more places adopt some specific policies.

Would seem a bit silly to ban them. As most e-bikes are speed limited, and essentially just assist the rider, then you could argue that they are not a fully motorised vehicle. If they are helping some folk to get out and enjoy the trails, and are riding with a the same level of respect for other riders (like evryone does?), then why stop them?

I have no plans to get one, and hope I never need one.

Just as long as you dont try and knobble proper Strava times…

As most e-bikes are speed limited,

easy to derestrict though

E bikes are great for those who may not be strong or fit enough to ride normal bikes, I’d expect attempts at blanket restrictions to run up against Disability Discrimination legislation. Having said that loads of Local Authorities happily build bike Infra that restricts access to some kinds of rider.

easy to derestrict though

And then it’s illegal in the UK, unless on private land

Would seem a bit silly to ban them. As most e-bikes are speed limited, and essentially just assist the rider, then you could argue that they are not a fully motorised vehicle. If they are helping some folk to get out and enjoy the trails, and are riding with a the same level of respect for other riders (like evryone does?), then why stop them?

+1

depends on your pov, if your running your e-bike to get straaaaava KOM’s then I suppose boo but then we should also ban capra’s too as every KOM around here is on one too 😆

Would seem a bit silly to ban them. As most e-bikes are speed limited, and essentially just assist the rider, then you could argue that they are not a fully motorised vehicle. If they are helping some folk to get out and enjoy the trails, and are riding with a the same level of respect for other riders (like evryone does?), then why stop them?

+1

depends on your pov, if your running your e-bike to get straaaaava KOM’s then I suppose boo but then we should also ban capra’s/29ers/CX bikes too as every KOM around here is on those too 😆

if your stopping people from getting into the great outdoors cos it ‘wasn’t like this in my day’ – grow up

Complete opposite in Austria where they promote them heavily on tourist board websites and having charging points at a lot of the mountain restaurants.

E bikes are great for those who may not be strong or fit enough to ride normal bikes

Agreed, especially regarding access issues.

Additionally, there does seems to be a great deal of (public) confusion between electric assist bikes (pedelecs) or E-bikes – the latter being a title which seems to cover everything between pedelec and half-ton drag-racing electric motorbike.

Pedelecs are also very useful for transport when traversing hilly places which would be time and energy constrictive for even an exceptionally fit cyclist.

For instance – my friend lives only 14 miles away, easily cycleable by regular bike, you would think, at least for most of us?

Yet, when visiting my friend by bicycle (unless take a suicidal A-road. And I won’t) there is no real choice but to navigate ten (coastal) valleys each way. This (speaking from experience) alters everything. What would (in regular rolling countryside) be a relaxing visit with (say) 40 minutes bike ride each way, becomes an exhausting small expedition of 3-4 hours up a considerable number of up extremely challenging gradients. (Tried working it out, it tops out at something like 9000ft total)

I figured in short that a pedelec (as addition to my regular bikes) would save me using the car for such a journey, especially when time is restricted*

I do hope that pedelecs will become a viable, progressive means of alternative transport (from cars) and quickly shed the developing image of ‘biking for the infirm’ . Ironically – driving a car is arguably the most ‘infirm’ method of transport other than sitting on a train. Yet neither have that image.

Someones getting banned from something….and its not me

Other than the technology used I don’t see the difference between electric bikes and motorbikes.

Other than the technology used I don’t see the difference between electric bikes and motorbikes.

How are you defining ‘electric bike’ here? ie ‘any bike with an electric motor’ or do differentiate between ‘assist’ and ‘no requirement to pedal’?

Other than the technology used I don’t see the difference between electric bikes and motorbikes electric pencil sharpeners.

Sorry I’m in a bad mood today

I read the links, and I don’t see anything about a ban, or any suggestion that the Forest Service are “not fans”. They’ve simply done an assessment and decided that ebikes can access FS trails under motor vehicle regs.
They even included a note on the position of the IMBA, who also appear to take the motor classification line: “IMBA would support the use of e-Bikes anywhere that we could also support other motorized uses.”

All seems very reasonable?

I read the links

and that’s how it starts…how dare you don’t you know this is STW

I look forward to the court case in the US when it is decided whether a pedal assist E-bike can actually be considered to be “self-propelled”, which is the basis of this legislation/rule.

Other than the technology used I don’t see the difference between electric bikes and motorbikes.

This is the quote that I’m getting most sick of in this endless debate.

I’ve ridden both and they’re worlds apart. Noise, pollution, very high speeds, terrain damage?

An e-bike is just a bike that goes up hills easier.

I got overtaken on my commute a week ago while riding up a small hill, i was doing 20mph. An oldish lady came flying past me with a massive grin on her face, she was still grinning as i overtook her going back down.

Her bike was clearly de-resticted, it didnt bother me as it made me smile seeing her enjoying herself.

I’ve got mixed emotions about them, they are getting more popular on my commute and there are a few that perhaps dont really need them and only have them to get to their destination quicker.

Other than the technology used I don’t see the difference between electric bikes and motorbikes.

You are not very perceptive. I suspect you’ve never had a go on one, or even read anything about them based on that comment.

Motorbikes have no speed limiters, beyond the rider’s conscience and the capability of the engine/motor, can have unlimited power, require no physical input from the rider and because of this can do a lot of damage to trails.

Electric bikes are limited to 15mph, can have no more than 250 watts (the KTM Freeride E electric motorbike has 16,405 watts – which is only 22 horsepower, half what the equivalent KTM 350 EXC petrol bike has) and the electric power only kicks in when the rider is pedalling. The power is so low that riding an electric bike still requires effort and will not rip trails to pieces any more than a normal bike. They won’t let you batter up muddy slopes you wouldn’t normally get up with the rear wheel slipping and firing roost everywhere. They behave just like a normal bike.

Do some research, stop being ignorant and see that these things are not a problem.

…there are a few that perhaps dont really need them and only have them to get to their destination quicker

Like 90% of the people sitting in cars who live walking distance from work.

Electric bikes are limited to 15mph, can have no more than 250 watts (the KTM Freeride E electric motorbike has 16,405 watts – which is only 22 horsepower, half what the equivalent KTM 350 EXC petrol bike has) and the electric power only kicks in when the rider is pedalling. The power is so low that riding an electric bike still requires effort and will not rip trails to pieces any more than a normal bike. They won’t let you batter up muddy slopes you wouldn’t normally get up with the rear wheel slipping and firing roost everywhere. They behave just like a normal bike.

True, but an electric motor will deliver 250W from standstill, hence why you can make electric drag bikes which post respectable times, but still won’t top 100mph, 22hp of electric power feels completely different to a 22hp petrol engine.

That plus the average STW forumite probably doesn’t have an FTP of 250W, even before the motor’s switched on, so it is going to cause more erosion knocking out >2x the power and good few extra kilos of weight.

Fine if you want to commute on them, that’s a different matter, but on trails, I really don’t see them as being the way forward for the sport in general. Too much potential for grief from landowners, potential liabilities for trail centers not being insured for motorized use (are they going to have a guy on the gates checking the restrictions?), grief from other user groups, just imagine not only having to calmly explain tot he red socks that yes it is a bridleway but that no your quiet bike doesn’t have an electric motor and you’re just quick because you’re fit (followed by the inevitable waste of police time when the red-sock phones in about a ‘motorbike’ on Houndkirk moor to 101).

TurnerGuy – Member
easy to derestrict though
And then it’s illegal in the UK, unless on private land

Yes, but when did that stop anybody

TINAS – Most people will do more than 15mph down an average non technical descent without a motor. Is that currently creating the conflicts you write about?

While I appreciate that the 250w is available on tap it’s not like it’s a massive amount, and on most technical ascents you’ll never reach the 15mph limiter anyway. It’s not going to suddenly turn the trail into the Somme.

As said previously, in Austria they are accepted as great things that get the not so fit out into the outdoors.
Charging stations in most touristy places.
Here’s one outside Spar:-

figured in short that a pedelec (as addition to my regular bikes) would save me using the car for such a journey, especially when time is restricted*

a good argument in favor of pedelec bikes for normally-able people

TurnerGuy – Member
easy to derestrict though
And then it’s illegal in the UK, unless on private land

Yes, but when did that stop anybody

Except when you have an accident you could open yourself up to a world of liability if the other party notices your illegal form of transport.

And any liability insurance you may have on your home insurance will probably be void as well.

That plus the average STW forumite probably doesn’t have an FTP of 250W, even before the motor’s switched on, so it is going to cause more erosion knocking out >2x the power and good few extra kilos of weight.

What you say may be true of electric motors but not of any/many pedelec systems.

Rider + motor power isn’t doubled up in that way and the motors don’t deliver power in a near-instant zero to max manner. To post 450-500w total you’d need to put out your 200-250W on top of a maxed-out e-bike motor – try it sometime : )
To hit the cut-off speed takes me about 50-80W estimated power – not much anyway. To add any notable speed / power on top of the 15mph limit is more like working not far off my max level since I’m working against the engine cut off drag as well as putting power to the wheel. What the e-bike pedalec system does is allow any rider to put out maybe 150W for 2hrs, hitting 250W uphill at times. It isn’t an addition to your own power, it’s almost independant of it.
It’s why I don’t see a need for normal/long cranks on e-bikes – it’s a very different way of delivering power via pedals, your pedals are simply the speed or input controller, not something you use to add significant power yourself unless the motor is turned off.

All that only counts for road-legal bikes. Even if you could spin ~200 rpm cadence from standstill the power delivery of road-legal ebikes won’t make wheel-spinning roost. MTB-specific systems will/can have different power curves but there’s no gain in excess power at start up like that.
As for the illegal versions, erosion from MTBers skidding about or riding in the wet on normal bikes will remain higher than the number of e-bikers on derestricted bikes for a long time yet I expect.

Yes, but when did that stop anybody

Except when you have an accident you could open yourself up to a world of liability if the other party notices your illegal form of transport.

And any liability insurance you may have on your home insurance will probably be void as well.

Add to that uninsured and unlicensed vehicle use on public roads. Probably without a motorbike-class helmet also. That could be points on your car license, prosecution, fines etc.
I expect it won’t take long for ebikes involved in road accidents to be checked over like any other vehicle would be, since the media love to highlight the terrors that the lycra louts inflict on the world it’ll be a known possibility before long.

Back to the original point/post though, the US wilderness regs that seem to influence things over there are about non-mechanised travel and/or non-motorised. I think that’s largely related to emissions and noise. Will be tricky to call how it’ll go for e-bikes that are motorised but have no emmissions or noise. Personally if they’re EU-legal classification I can’t see any issues with them going where any other bikes can go.

Not as simple as “private land” it would actually have to be “private land to which the public do not have access” for a derestricted ebike

US based but with relevance to everyone else really

Except it’s really not relevant to everyone else really – UK law is absolutely clear that a restricted ebike/EPAC is, in law, a bicycle – I don’t think it helps anyone publishing articles, viewpoints or regulations from the states, it only serves to muddy the waters.

Except when you have an accident you could open yourself up to a world of liability if the other party notices your illegal form of transport.

And any liability insurance you may have on your home insurance will probably be void as well.

When has that ever stopped anyone on a motorbike (where the penalties are more severe and it requires some tools and mechanical know-how).

Doubling the average persons power output on a climb is going to cause erosion. And we already have trouble with being lumped in with motorbikes in the eyes of the Ramblers et. al. Further blurring those lines isn’t going to help.

We should also ban all motor vehicles from the roads because some folk will exceed the speed limit.

Doubling the average persons power output on a climb is going to cause erosion

They won’t double an average rider’s power unless it’s built to be a road-illegal electric ‘crosser.

Further blurring those lines isn’t going to help.

The EU and UK laws unblur the lines quite clearly I’d say. Visually harder to spot the difference between legal and dongled on the trail but that’s just how it is.

I have actually ridden an electric bike on the road, so I have a good idea of what the advantage in terms of pedal assist is available.

I’m 60 years old and ride quite a bit off road these days, but the day will come when the climbing involved will probably force me to stop due to me just not being physically capable of the effort required.

An electric bike which would assist me would be great, it means I could still continue to get out and enjoy my riding.

I honestly don’t see any negatives.
The bike won’t cause any more damage to the trails, I probably won’t be that much quicker anywhere, I will be out having some exercise and enjoyment.
Whats not to like?

as for the Strava cheating line, lets get real, if we were any good in terms of performance we would be racing, and winning. Strava is good distraction and motivation on a personal level, thats what I use it more.

Regards

Denis

An electric bike which would assist me would be great, it means I could still continue to get out and enjoy my riding.

I honestly don’t see any negatives.

I can see one…

I met an older gentlemen at peaslake on one – he said he and his 71 year old mate could now ride around that areas whereas without the assist they wouldn’t be able to.

But he said that as they started down a trail, BKB in this case, they would obviously be careful as a fall at that age has more consequence than for a younger rider, but that care would soon dissolve as they threw caution to the wind and blasted down like kids.

So the negative is the increased risk exposure…

If increased risk exposure is a bad thing then let’s ban helmets.

Tinas – grasping at straws much?

This. It took a while for somebody to point out the most fundamental issue with the OP. In the US they are classed as motor vehicles, in the UK provided they meet the relevant rules they’re classed as bicycles.

The point about public liability insurance on your household insurance is an interesting one. On my policy and all others I’ve checked there is specific mention of e-bikes being covered in the same way as bicycles (provided they meet the regs), despite the fact they’d normally be classified as motorised vehicles and therefore not covered. Therefore you definitely wouldn’t be insured when riding a de-restricted one (not that most people seem to be aware they are insured for cycling under a household policy).

I’d certainly like to see more e-bikes and less cars, that would make a lot of sense for shorter journeys, especially in overcrowded urban areas. But that would make more sense if people were using roads rather than cycle lanes/paths, otherwise they would quickly become congested and create user conflict. But you could create brilliant town centre e-bike parks with charging points, and decent routes direct to town. You could do your shopping with this instead of an X5:
http://bikes-as-transportation.com/third-generation-electric-cargo-bike/

I think with ebikes off road, the perception is going to be worse than the reality. Concerns about trail conflict, erosion, and derestricted bikes are certainly valid. But, I think it will be self-selecting in much the same way mtbing is already. People are still going to have to have the will to venture out in the mud and navigate themselves, or head to a place that is suitable, as well as factor in the extra expense of an e-bike compared with a capable entry level mtb. An ebike doesn’t suddenly render it any easier to negotiate technical features, read a map (or follow a GPS), or fix mechanicals – all things that prevent people from riding off road already. It may mean more ebikes at trail centre venues, but perhaps these might be catered for on e-bike specific trails, or just on regular trails. Would they create more damage than happens already with corner cutting and braking bumps..? I’m fairly open-minded about it.

Except for Strava. They have to have a different category/App for ebikes 🙂

E-assist bikes are being used on trails in my area.

Not seeing any evidence of damage.

Most trail damage here is done by downhill would be heroes.

Perhaps we should ban the power assist given by gravity… 🙂

I think you may be overestimating the amount of power that the “average” rider puts out, or can be bothered to put out. 😉

A truly excellent use for an e-bike – on something where 15mph is a decent speed and could be hard to achieve with just pedal power, where hills are usually a big impediment, and where the extra weight isn’t really noticeable. The big remaining issue is the price.

Though this made me 😕

They need the hub dynamo to determine how fast the bike is going so they can keep electric assistance within legal limits.

Most e-bikes manage without one, and you wouldn’t think it terribly difficult to have speed measurement in the electric power unit – and if not you certainly don’t need a dynamo to measure speed. Somebody is misunderstanding or peddling BS.

Except for Strava. They have to have a different category/App for ebikes

They already do – not sure how long it’s been there, I just noticed it there one day – so e-bike riders have no excuse for messing with unpowered leaderboards.