not sure but look at what we were cycling up... see above pics MR overshoot first shot for example.
Stone road/cart track /double track so hardly an errosion footpath tramp fest. Did not feel at all cheeky given what it was we were on but in all honesty not sure.
Other parts of the route are clearly footpaths /cheeeky trails FWIW
mAx_hEadSet - MemberDrum . .er that will be the mountain o nthe northern Carneddau there is not a right of way to cycle up wont it.... just checking to see if I have my facts straight...
Well, there's a bridleway marked on the map, which turns into a footpath at the top. The track going up there is obviously an old cart track as it's been benchcut. If anything, I'd be pushing to see why it isn;t a full bridelway all the way over, rather than checking if it's legal at all....
mAx_hEadSet - MemberDrum . .er that will be the mountain o nthe northern Carneddau there is not a right of way to cycle up wont it.... just checking to see if I have my facts straight...
Er that'll be you never borrowed a friend's CD, accidentally slipped over 70 mph on the motorway etc? Just checking you're qualified to ride that preposterously high horse that's making you look so daft...
And for the record, i've met NT rangers up on Drum a few times now. All i've had is encouragement. Bit of a difference to the SNP rangers i've met in the evening on a full BW on Snowdon before now...
zokes - Max is a ROW officer in north wales 
must do that route again.... right of way or not
zokes - Max is a ROW officer in north wales
Oops 
However, if that's the case, perhaps he could explain why it's not a bridleway, when it was clearly an old cart track, and is regularly used by landrovers. I presume there's a perfectly rational reason 
Proper Mtbing in proper (small) mountains.
Oh joy
Max, better get camped up there cos I think it may be a bit busy in the coming weeks after the glowing report. 8O. Seriously though my memory map has it as a track for all except the last 200 to 300m. Is that true Max?
It looks like the last 50 meters at most is not a track, but TBH by that point I'm cramping up so would be on foot anyway. It is possible I might have been on my bike going down, but not have been clipped in before the path turns back into a track 
Hmm... sorry about that chaps. To be honest though, as the track up is double track all the way to the summit I wouldnt have thought it would pose much of a problem.
Its the rest of the ride I would be worried about 
No high horses and wont be camping up there either....
Zokes .. If only I could explain, it is an interesting situation.. I dont really know it's origin ... possibly military, there were a lot of American Regiments in North Wales during WWII and needed lots of training, many mountain cart tracks such as the one over the three peaks at the horseshoe pass near Llangollen originated from these US Army Jeep tracks, they never became rights of way other than the road passing from World's End to Minera which the yanks tarmaced after the war as thanks for been welcomed by the locals.
I note that my Garmin Oregon GPS mapping shows many tracks including ones in Caersws forest which are private forest roads used for the downhill racing that the farmer made himself, The OS maps are generally quite good for defining both rights of way and public roads on maps in this area they have only ever recorded it as a physical feature and never assigned any public right of way to it.
I would doubt anyone has seen a recreational 4x4 up there as it's a shoot on sight management strategy for any of the SNP militia who are often seen loitering about in their white landrovers as motorbikes are a regular problem on Conwy Mountain and on Drum, as one poster points out these guys are a whole lot greater grade of unreasonable than the NT wardens who are mostly seasonal and gap year students.
There are a number of well used rides in this area not all are open legally to cyclists and are either footpaths or nothing. . having had meetings with the SNP and County Council to talk about trying to regularise access to some of them, meetings generally seem to suggest they consider unauthorised use by mtbs is predominently local riders who don't benefit by aggravating the landowners, numbers remain minimal and so do not pose a threat so it is easier to turn a blind eye.. if use levels increases or rider behaviour turns for the worse then the situation would be reviewed. I figure the more online route hawkers and web sites featuring the ride as some kind of off road Alton Towers that day of reckoning will come all the sooner.
Before the usual dawn chorus of those braying to suggest we all ignore it and ride anyway, they also might want to note that current plans to build more mtb trails in Snowdonia with 4 or 5 local enterprise groups partly in competition to secure a lot of EU funding to do it, it will be important to have the local councils and national park supporting the plans as they both have the capacity to veto and withhold the needed match funding. If they think opening up more trails just increases the number of visiting mountain bikers who show little respect and increasing acts of trespass on private land in protected landscapes, it is harder to make the case to get the support from the councillors and committees who will have an eye on keeping their local residents as happy as much as eyeing any earnings from incoming visitors
So what you're saying is that to be able to ride our bikes where we wish (assuming we stay on legal tracks) then we must consent to being made to ride only on man made trails where the state decrees that mtbing is acceptable?
I'd like the Memory Map (or GPX) route too, if you would be so kind. Looks gorgeous.
hirstaATgmailDOTcom
Many thanks.
Dave, would you say it's silly light hardtail country or would I need the 26 pound big hitter?
Max, is the out 'n' back to Llyn Anafon in the same boat as Drum?
the hard tail would do fine but the big rocky descent from Drum would be a bit of a bone shaker (5 mins probably less) the rest is all grass/smooth stuff. Would be fine on a hardtail
Dont ask Lowey he hasn't got a hardtail imagine it only one bike
mAx - will the new trails to be built be brand new, or involove upgrading existing tracks. Such as WWII military roads....
Graham, hardtail will be fine. The tastiest descent past the chapel can be a bit rough though.
mmm i for one won't be handing in my old legal natural routes so anyone can hand me back man made stuff in exchange no sirree, no not at all chatsworth... but if offered extra new legal dedicated tracks on the condition that riders respect current laws of access, I would accept because of the benefit those who dont or cant read maps or GPS from longer scaletrix rides. There by increasing the numbers of accountable riders who eventually will help bring about a more fundamental change in access laws in the Mountains with greater equity for cyclists... those who simply feel they can steal access only perpetuate the distrust and lengthen the delay of a worth while change.
In the meantime I can only pray that some time soon the Welsh Assembly break us free of England and the archaic feudal Norman land laws the English have had imposed on us since Edward 1 arrived. A direct result of this legal gift was those who became the new landowners being so seriously misled for 1000 years, that they came to believe the saxon tongue that suggested they alone had the right to control who was on the land of Wales rather than the past celtic culture where those gifted to speak the language of heaven could go about the country as they pleased, subject to causing no harm or damage, and would find those who farmed the land offering hospitality of accomodation after dark as a matter of obligation.... until they crossed the English border where they were quite often made to be outlaws simply because of their language or place of birth.
And you wonder what the locals are all talking about when you enter our shops....
ditto ChatsworthMusters point
i don't consider myself as disrespectful to others or damaging to protected landscapes when i ride - neither do i want to only ride manicured crappy trail centres
Thanks max, that's a great reply.
Like I said, having met NT rangers up there who encouraged me to go faster (!), but SNP rangers on Snowdon late one evening who seemed to think cyclists don't need to ride snowdon any more as there's the Marin trail etc (!) I remain unconvinced about the future success any moves to open up the more natural areas. (The SNP rangers failed to see the parallels with their assertions about bikers only needing the marin and mine about there being a perfectly good path around the lake in Llanberis for walkers - but that's another story).
In the 8 years I've been here in North West Wales I've heard on-and-off mutterings about about improved access etc, but given the glacial timescales these things appear to move in, I think I'll carry on discretely riding where I please. This may clash with your views here:
those who simply feel they can steal access only perpetuate the distrust and lengthen the delay of a worth while change.
but given that there was a lot of talk about similar improvements of access at my native rivington before I left for uni 8 years ago, and if anything, there's less of a blind eye and therefore less access there now than there was 8 years ago, I won't hold my breath.
FWIW, most of that route up there is published in the Bikefax guide, written by locals, with (possibly an assumption based on gossip) permission from landowners where bridleways don't exist on the routes. Surely this demonstrates that some progress can be made without ghettoising MTBers to CyB, ByC etc?
Surely the number of MTBers who would actually be interested in slogging up Drum is completely negligible compared to the amount of people who turn Snowdon, Tryfan et al into a clusterfuck every holiday weekend?
Surely the number of MTBers who would actually be interested in slogging up Drum is completely negligible compared to the amount of people who turn Snowdon, Tryfan et al into a clusterfuck every holiday weekend?
A point I also (although not as eloquently as you 
) put to the SNP rangers I was talking to on Snowdon. Apparently it's the few mountainbikers responsible for the 3-metre wide scar down the flank of the mountain, as the walkers don't cause anywhere near as much damage
Given these imbecilic views by people who probably have an effect on such things as access rights, i'm sure you'll excuse me for having little faith in a favourable official solution, if there's ever an official solution in the first place...
I'm moving to Scotland.
ROW in this country and Wales are just FUBAR.... totally fubar.
Drum mountain is fantastic. Its one hell of a slog up, but the descent is crazy balls-out mental!!!!! I managed to cook a set of brake pads, and utterly destroy a set of fork seals on the last descent. My front disc was literally smoking
Great fun!!!
Thats a hell of a coincidence. I went through a set of rear pads and 1 fork seal on the right leg.
Must be our weight mate.
The 1st time I did Drum about 8 years ago, I cooked a set of v-brake pads and had the rim too hot to touch! I guess it's the fact that for the most part you can go flat out down it that makes it so wearing on the bikes when you try to stop!
So no coincidence - Drum kills bikes. Be careful out there
I take it your referring to our svelte and dainty forms causing chaos for equipment designed for much burlier individuals 
on the condition that riders respect current laws of access, I would accept because of the benefit those who dont or cant read maps
But isn't that the nux of the problem. Mtb riders (and I don't think any of us are exempt) want to ride where we wish. Unfortunately there are a few who demand this as a right and will happily charge where they want regardless of any rights, laws or agreements. Those mindless few will continue to do so whatever structure is put in place. Yes, they do largely seem to come from the trail centre crew who have little knowledge of, or respect for, the countryside at large; but there is one regular poster on here who seldom rides trail centres whose attitude appears to be "**** you, I'm going where I want". It's little wonder that the powers that be get upset.
ChatsworthMusters - Member
<snip>It's little wonder that the powers that be get upset.
I would mostly agree with what you say. I would question however the validity of the assumptions made by "the powers that be" which casue upset when it seems that others do not agree with them
Christ, I never thought I'd be agreeing with SFB (who I assume you're referring to) on this one, but...
but there is one regular poster on here who seldom rides trail centres whose attitude appears to be "**** you, I'm going where I want". It's little wonder that the powers that be get upset.
Whilst dragging huge organised rides over footpaths possibly isn't the greatest idea in terms of 'keeping the authorities happy', apart from 'rules is rules', what are the main arguments for cyclists not riding on footpaths? I agree that if cyclists existed in the same numbers as walkers, perhaps they'd cause more erosion, but I'll never accept that in our current numbers it's a great problem in *most* cases. Setting aside the fact that the rules on access exist at present, and instead looking behind the reasons for the rules on MTB access yields very little concrete evidence as to why cyclists aren't allowed most places. These seem to be based upon the two following premises: 'it's my land', or 'walkers were here first'. Those two arguments will never cut it with me, or a large proportion of the other responsible riders.
Basically, all most of us ask for is fair access, like that proven to work in Scotland. Unless very sound environmental reasons are demonstrated as to why we can't ride certain footpaths, I doubt most cyclists will pay much notice to existing rules based on archaic laws with little basis in the modern world. A good example of how such agreements can work is the arrangement on Snowdon - clearly very fast downhill bikes and several thousand inexperienced walkers do not mix, so separate them at the busiest times.
The noises I get from the SNP are that the only reason bikes are officially allowed up there at all is that if it was an outright ban, then cyclists would still ride there, just that they wouldn't pay any attention to what time they went - clearly a lose-lose situation. At present at least, the time-limits suit (mostly) both groups of users.
I largely agree with your sentiments; but unfortunately in the present set up "the powers that be" make the rules and we must obey them. We may not like the rules, I certainly don't, but just saying "up yours" then taking 30 riders over footpaths, posting photos on the internet and shouting how great you are is no way to win the hearts and minds of the decision makers.
I regularly ride footpaths and other places where I'm not supposed to be, but there are ways and means of doing it without getting up everyone's noses. Unfortunately we don't have much of a voice in the corridors of power, so decisions are made on the general perceptions of what we are and do. Those perceptions may not be correct, but it is up to us to change them.
it is up to us to change them.
I've been riding for 15 years, and most of that time I'd like to think I've been pretty responsible. I'm yet to see much evidence of change. In fact, there have been ideas mooted in the past about making some footpaths at rivington concessionary cycleways, some similar designation. The most vocal protagonists against this idea - walkers who didn't want us on 'their' paths, and horseriders who demanded that if cyclists get more access, then they must have the same access (totally failing to see that it would be impractical to get a horse down some paths without major 'sanitisation', whereas bikes fit relatively easily anywhere walkers can go). So even when the 'powers that be' see our side, selfishness of other users prevents progress.
As for obeying 'rules is rules' purely because someone has decided that it should be a certain way without good justification, then that's just daft. This leads us very close to the American tenet of "we don't have common sense over here as we have rules" mentality, which is quite clearly brainless
I think we agree. Were we separated at birth?
Were we separated at birth?
Possibly - assuming you're also a pathetic little man
This place makes me chuckle sometimes....
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