Drug cheats and lifetime bans.

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  • Drug cheats and lifetime bans.
  • Edric 64
    Member

    Should be a lifetime ban from all sports

    He should be banned for having a stupid name though anyway.

    uplink
    Member

    or is everyone entitled to a second chance?

    Only if you believe that when they were caught it was the first time they tried it
    Otherwise, you’re giving then a second chance at not getting caught

    clubber
    Member

    I’m in two minds about it – I certainly don’t think drugs cheats should be given an easy route back BUT looking at someone like Millar, I do think that he’d probably be more of a positive influence than negative if he could race at the Olympics.

    I guess that I’m on the side of letting them compete BUT only if they’ve admitted their guilt and explained how they doped, who supplied, etc.

    bristolbiker
    Member

    I may have misunderstood the ruling, but is it not he case that a lifetime ban could be introduced by WADA as part of its sanctions and then this would have to be recognised by the IOC. In other words, it’s not really the lifetime ban that is at issue, but the fact that it is WADA who issues drugs sanctions, not the IOC.

    NB: This may be an over-simplification of a subject that is, at any level, a complete minefield

    leggyblonde
    Member

    Clubber +1

    phil.w
    Member

    I may have misunderstood the ruling…

    I don’t think you have.

    WADA could introduce a lifetime ban but until they do any ban that goes above and beyond WADA’s punishment has just been deemed to be a second (and unfair) punishment.

    So effectively anyone that challenges a lifetime ban should win as the precedent has been set. Or at least that is what is expected to happen.

    deadlydarcy
    Member

    This won’t happen very often, but…

    Yes, clubber +1

    Premier Icon scaredypants
    Subscriber

    meh, strip ALL prior titles then let ’em back in but must wear a special strip with “drug cheat” prominently written on front & back so they can’t sell their image any longer

    clubber
    Member

    Already framed and on the wall DD 😉

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    Hmm.. not a bad idea.. lifetime ban unless you spill the beans…

    Elfinsafety
    Member

    That;’s actually a pretty bloody good idea, Scardey.

    But in the spirit of forgiveness etc, maybe just make them wear it for a specified time, like 5 years or something. I do think it would be a good move to encourage athletes not to use drugs, if the prospect of them not being able to earn good money through sponsorship was real. Ban them from being able to take any money from sponsors or those using their image to promote goods etc. And maybe fine them according to their income during the period they were cheating for. Ben Johnson etc mustuv earned millions during the time they cheated, and got to keep it all.

    Premier Icon stever
    Subscriber

    I don’t think David Millar could be made to wear a bigger dunce’s hat, he wears it from choice loud and clear.

    One of the key points that comes across from his book is the lack of clear role-models for staying clean. By all accounts he’s now doing just that with Cervelo potentially protecting a new generation of younger riders. He could play a similar role for Olympians (though less required by Team GB).

    It’s almost certain that clean riders (and athletes) will be competing against previously doped competitors …who don’t happen to have been caught. So not an easy one then.

    phil.w
    Member

    With LaShawn Merritts Olympic ban being overturned it looks like the BOA will eventually have to drop their permanent ban.

    Is this really the right route to be taking or should convicted drugs cheats be given a lifetime ban in all sports.

    Would that not be the best deterrent or is everyone entitled to a second chance?

    Link to Merritt article

    iDave
    Member

    Does this self-righteousness apply to all cheats in all walks of life or just cyclists who have doped?

    Elfinsafety
    Member

    All sports persons.

    And how’s it ‘self righteousness’? It’s about trying to ensure that cheats are kept out of sports, and that those caught cannot profit from their cheating. What’s wrong wiv dat?

    Personally I can’t stand hearing people like Millar and Dwayne Chambers whine on about their ‘mistakes’ etc. Had they never bin caught, they’d neverruv owned up, but carried on taking coin for being cheats. Fact.

    iDave
    Member

    Lifetime bans from working if your expense claims aren’t whiter than white. Life time driving ban if you break the speed limit. Just checking.

    Elfinsafety
    Member

    Now you’re just being silly iDave.

    Premier Icon teamhurtmore
    Subscriber

    Elfin +1000.

    I hope that GB could take and independent stance but I guess the human rights BS would get in the way.

    Perhaps if any cheats win a gold medal, the other guys could step off the podium and the crowd turn their backs and boo the anthem. Or raise a flag with a “cheat” banner clear visible.

    i don’t think its self-righteous at all.

    crikey
    Member

    iDave +1

    Let those who have never ever ever done a naughty cast the first stone, let the rest get down from that high horse before they get altitude sickness.

    Elfinsafety
    Member

    Sigh….

    Very poor argument, iDave. Trouble with cheating in sports, is that it can prevent other, non-cheating athletes from achieving their goal. Meaning that even though they’ve stuck by the rules, there is no reward for them because some other competitor took the cowards way to success.

    Ask Oscar Pereiro Sio how he thinks about ‘winning’ the TdF in 2006.

    This man cheated, and got to stand on the top step of the podium in Paris, and bask in the glory of being the ‘winner’.

    Where was Oscar’s moment of glory, the one he deserved for actually winning the race according to the rules?

    Premier Icon scaredypants
    Subscriber

    they effectively defraud their “employer” (team funding, appearance, prizes, sponsorship – or all ultimately from the watching public, if you prefer) and they deny other (clean) athletes the status and potentially huge rewards that they merit

    If I did that my employer/regulatory body should have the right to ensure that I don’t do it again by sacking me and never rehiring me

    crikey
    Member

    Sigh all you like, but your reductionist approach is poorly thought out and asks for higher standards of behaviour than you are subjected to, or would tolerate. It also demonstrates a lack of appreciation for the way that professional sport has evolved.

    Premier Icon teamhurtmore
    Subscriber

    iDave +1…Let those who have never ever ever done a naughty cast the first stone, let the rest get down from that high horse before they get altitude sickness.

    Hey, lets apply that logic to motorists and speeding. Given that we all break the speed limit at some stage, no sanctions for any speeders. What a crock!

    Elfinsafety
    Member

    Sigh all you like, but your reductionist approach is poorly thought out

    No it’s not. As I’ve explained. iDave’s logic is the one what is ‘poorly thought out’.

    Do you remember Oscar Pereiro Sio’s glorious win in the 2006 TdF, his ride into Paris in his deserved Leader’s Yellow Jersey, and his triumphant step up onto the podium in front of hundreds of thousands of race fayns and the World’s media? No, thought not…

    And why would that be, pray tell?

    Junkyard
    Member

    I think when someone has an epiphany like Millar then it is a good thing to allow/encourage rehabilitation
    When they dont actually care and just want to be back in the money the drug cheat strip.

    Forgiveness is fine if they look like/ really are repenting.

    mattsccm
    Member

    Why should this apply to cyclists alone. Until ALL other sports have a equally severe policy it’s not really of any value.
    Might I also suggest that if the reason why doping is banned is image then lets take our basball bats to those who publisise it. The paper do not tell all for moral reasons, they do it to sell. As does the cycling press.
    The press are far more damaging to the sport than the drug takers.

    Actually I fail to see a big problem. if a cyclist harms himself its his problem. No one has any right to suppress anothers to hurt them self. They do have a duty to allow him to do so.
    So now we come to the idea of fairness. Why not allow more drugs. After all cyclists are pumped full of un natural stuff anyway. Allow it and it can be controled, ban it and it goes underground.
    Finally I agree with iDave. Plus I would say it is none of our business. Unless we have a WADA expert lurking on the forum we are all talking uneducated bollocks.

    crikey
    Member

    Ok, let me clarify for the hard of thinking… I’m not suggesting that drug cheats get off free, that they be given a smack on the wrist, or even the bottom then allowed to go away and carry on.

    I am suggesting that a lifetime ban is too harsh, and requires a standard of behaviour from a person doing a job that we would not expect from anyone else.

    By all means have sanctions, by all means have year, two year bans, and have increased scrutiny afterwards, but to ban someone for life, esentially taking away a means to earn a living is extremely harsh and is not reflected elsewhere in society.

    cynic-al
    Member

    What iDave said.

    Keyboard moralising really is too easy…even the idiots can do it!

    uplink
    Member

    What happens to other drug abusers that represent their country?

    let’s say a soldier?

    iDave
    Member

    elf, do I need a visa to visit your planet or just rose tinted specs?

    Doping, as Millar explained, was running through the entire system. Teams encouraging it, UCI turning a blind eye, every man and his dog pretty much at it, the clean ones taunted and vilified.

    What’s the chance that Sio was clean? Given how close he was to winning a tour where doping was going on. Haven’t seen much of him since…

    iDave
    Member

    uplink, use recreation drugs in the military and you’re in trouble – you have to use the official and often experimental ones the MOD give you so you can fight more effectively

    Kevevs
    Member

    define “drugs” on a 1-10 scale. what is good what is bad, what enhances performance to what level? each number on the scale should be a different colour on the Ban “strip cheat” band the banned athletes have to wear. Then market the tops in JJB sports and all the cool kids can buy ’em and figure it out.

    Elfinsafety
    Member

    but to ban someone for life, esentially taking away a means to earn a living is extremely harsh

    What if, as a result of their cheating, they denied another clean athlete the means to earn a living?

    Dwain Chambers prevented other athletes from having the opportunity to go on and succeed, as well as having his team-mates stripped of their medals which they thought they’d won fairly and squarely.

    Difference with something like speeding, is that it usually only affects one person; cheating in sports can affect many others who’ve done nothing wrong.

    Maybe a lifetime ban is harsh, but athletes must be discouraged from cheating as much as possible.

    don simon
    Member

    Are we talking about lifetime bans or lifetime Olympic bans, Millar still seems to be earning a living, doesn’t he?
    EDIT: If an athlete can prove that they are clean and competitive, why shouldn’t they compete at the highest level.
    Isn’t prison about rehabilitation and not punishment?

    Elfinsafety
    Member

    elf, do I need a visa to visit your planet or just rose tinted specs?

    Behave, you’ll just hurt yourself. 🙄

    You need to possess the ability to actually think carefully about things, to visit my planet mate. 😀

    Seems like all I have to do to visit yours, is get drugged up to the eyeballs and so out of it, rational thought is no longer possible….. 😉

    crikey
    Member

    Maybe a lifetime ban is harsh

    No ‘maybe’ about it.

    Remember you are talking about people who have done nothing else since being 14-15-16 years old, who have no other skills, who work in an environment where this seasons results decide whether or not you have a job next year, whether your mortgage gets paid, or your kids get fed.

    In that situation, taking stuff can be the difference between a job or not, and in that situation, the majority of people who condemn and shout about lifetime bans and hang ’em high, would do exactly the same.

    Let me stress, again, I’m not suggesting leniency, I’m against drug taking in sport, I think it changes the way we view it, and as you have noted cheats others out of their rightful victories, but there is more to it than ‘ban them all forever’.

    Elfinsafety
    Member

    So where did I say ‘ban them all forever’, eh? Eh? EH???

    I imagine, if you got caught fiddling yer spenses at work, most employers would sack you. Such an act could follow you around and have a significant impact on your future career.

    No ‘maybe’ about it.

    Remember you are talking about people who have done nothing else since being 14-15-16 years old, who have no other skills, who work in an environment where this seasons results decide whether or not you have a job next year, whether your mortgage gets paid, or your kids get fed.

    What about the other athletes who’ve done the same, then give up cos they’ve bin beaten by someone else so they don’t beleive they’re fast enough? Only to discover, often years later, that they were only ever beaten by a cheat?

    So, you cheat, you get banned, you have to pursue another career. Diddums. Tough doo-doo. Should’ve thought about that before you decided to break the rules and cheat, innit?

    I’m all for giving folk a second chance, me. Sure, give them the opportunity to make amends. I’ve no problem with that. I just think there should be an effective deterrent and incentive not to use drugs in sports.

    2-year ban and ‘carry on as you were’ is not sufficient. Maybe ‘5-year ban and donate 50% of all future earnings from the sport to charidee’ or something would be more effective as a deterrent. Would be a far more effective way of making amends than ‘oh I’m so sorry I don’t know what came over me I promise I’ll be good now can I come back and make lots of money again please thanks’.

    I’d ban Millar for his whiney voice, and Chambers for his stroppy face anyway. But then, I’m quite a reasonable sort of bloke tbh.

    andrewh
    Member

    Has any race organiser ever tried to prosecute (or get the relevant authorities to prosecute) a competitor for fraud if they were found to have cheated? Especially where prize money is involved this could be obtaining money by deception.
    If so, who, and what was the outcome?
    .
    .
    I’m in favour of the lifetime ban in principle. But then I remember Greg Rusestski (sp?) who failed a test for nandrolone because of a contanimated drink provided by the tennis governing body through some sponsorship deal, alway the odd case to be judged on it’s merits. Bit like the death penalty, great idea if you are sure you have the right guy…

    Remember you are talking about people who have done nothing else since being 14-15-16 years old, who have no other skills, who work in an environment where this seasons results decide whether or not you have a job next year, whether your mortgage gets paid, or your kids get fed.

    If I was an accountant and was convicted of a money-laundering offence I would never be allowed to practice again, surely the same principle to apply to sportsmen?

    iDave – Member
    What’s the chance that Sio was clean? Given how close he was to winning a tour where doping was going on. Haven’t seen much of him since…

    think you’ll find he hd a bad crash in TDF that he never really recovered from hence his retirement.

    (quietly) I agree with elf on this. 😉

    Millar is a cheat. he wasnt forced to, he chose to. Boardman didnt cheat, mottet didnt , kimmage, pinotti.

    Millar thought he was the cheese when he was at Cofidis, friends with Lance,the next big thing. Arrogent ****t …..milking his worlds win knowing he was EPO’d up to the max.

    Sends out the wrong signs to the new blood coming into the sport. Comparisons cant be made to speeding etc its completely irrelevant and disproportionate.

    It will be a sad day should Millar make a podium at the Olympics (wont happen anyway…too many better Time Triallists)

    Imagine Cav winning road race…..all the papers will be focusing on Millar and his past. The riders wont want him there.

    Listen to Campbell on Talksport website being interviewed today re Chambers, cheats etc…. says it all.

    (bet Millar doesnt challenge it , much as Brailsford would love him to)

    Premier Icon aracer
    Subscriber

    Lifetime bans from working if your expense claims aren’t whiter than white. Life time driving ban if you break the speed limit.

    Lifetime ban from forums for posting strawmen.

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