Speccing a new Curtis frame. Joining stainless steel to 725 stays doesn’t seem feasible with brass welds (which I want for the raw finish), so that rules out Paragon sliders and I can’t see any other sliders that look nice, come aftermarket for a framebuilder to use which are steel (not stainless). Correct me if I’m wrong!!

Because of this, will be going EBB with normal dropouts. Are there any with changeable inserts – so drive side SS to geared, but non-drive side standard to Rohloff? Oh, and which look nice too?

I don’t mean this to sound “odd” or “off” but wouldn’t Curtis be the best folk to ask?

Could they not tig the weld then braze over the area for the look?

I have a few catalogues of Taiwanese dropout vendors if Curtis can get them via the usual suppliers like Ceeway. PM me if so. Ceeway supply a lot of frame builders so maybe worth a look there or check who Curtis buy from? Surly dropouts may also work.

EBB with normal dropouts

Good call – make it a Bushnell tho.

Joining stainless steel to 725 stays doesn’t seem feasible with brass welds (which I want for the raw finish)

Hmm. Off the top of my head I can’t think why there would be a problem with this – with the right flux stainless can be brazed, or it can be silver-soldered if you don’t need big fillets.

But maybe there are other design considerations why they won’t work.

letmetalktomark – have done that, but Ceeway are the main supplier and the standard choice is Richey or anything else not very inspiring.

jameso – will PM you.

bencooper – yes, my understanding is negligible! I’m going with what I’m told.

P-IMG_3284 by eddkh, on Flickr

How about the 2 souls slider dropouts? They come ready designed for Rohloff, sort the chain tensioning and have a mech hanger option. Also good if using untapered round stays. They are a 25mm wide so need to make sure no heel clipping issues.

EBB makes the back end easy, but I’m personally not a big fan (the Carver Bushnell copies I’ve used seemed to love ingesting mud and needed regular cleaning before adjusting). But Jameso does know his stuff so don’t write them off on my account.

Do any of the Surly ones suit? Black Cat swingers?

Trouble is getting them, I think – Salsa Alternators look good but I don’t know if you can get them, likewise the Pace sliders. 2 Souls weigh quite a bit and don’t look exactly elegant.

You can buy the regular Surly dropouts through Ceeway / Ison.

You can buy the bolt on bits for the Salsa dropouts but would have to get the brazed bit made to suit. Not impossible but will add cost / framebuilder may be unwilling.

I’m pretty sure Black Cat sell dropout kits to proper insured framebuilders like Curtis (just not hobbyists). They are the dropout that Salsa ripped off in the first place for the Alternators……..

2nd black cat

It is possible to join 725 to a stainless dropout, you just have to think about it a little more. The diameter of the stay is more likely to cause a problem, but below is a 19mm 631 chainstay, joined to a stainless paragon rocker dropout (their slider would work exactly the same).

Dropout to chainstay joint blasted by 18bikes, on Flickr

I have achieved this using a plug brazed into the tube (using brass, the line around the tube) that is then slotted to fit the dropout so it can be silvered together. The issue is that the types of silver most framebuilders use isn’t designed for filling large gaps (hence the plug) and is also incredibly expensive, so you don’t want to use loads of it. The type of brass most builders use can’t be used on stainless.

This type of joint allows virtually any material and diameter chainstay (or seatstay) to be joined to any design/material of dropout.

Here is the finished rear end with the seastays done in the same way, although smaller diameter tubes

18 Bikes 02 by 18bikes, on Flickr

I’m not touting for business as we don’t currently offer fillet frames but my suggestion would be to find someone who can build the frame you want, using the parts you want. If you want a tig frame though, drop me a line 😉

Matt

The type of brass most builders use can’t be used on stainless.

Sifbronze 101 FTW 😉

Aye, using a plug / bullet silvered in is one tidy way of doing it – nice job on that…

I feel are warm and fuzzly reading that 🙂

+1 2souls – they can be machined down – seen a really nice example on an 18 bikes one at bespoked bristol a couple of years ago

Ben- I’ve got some 101 on order, can’t wait to try it for fillet, didn’t realise it could be used on stainless though, worth knowing

Oxymoron- it made a huge difference to the weight on that bike. We’ve still got a set of 2souls dropouts in stock and they’ve just added 142×12 sliders for them too

Matt

It needs a decent amount of flux, and needs to be pretty clean of course, but works very well. I use 101 for pretty much everything.

Ben, which flux would you use for brazing 101?

I really like the Cycle Designs LFB paste.

I’m loving this thread now.

Plenty to think about …

Design and build it yourself, and have Brian Curtis help you.
http://www.thebicycleacademy.org/2013/04/22/were-on-tv/
The flame is green because the flux is in the flame, gasflux.

Brian/Gary built my frame with Paragons but after a few test brazes they got the drop outs tig welded on as the braze just wasn’t pleasing them. I think it’s the only one they’ve done (7 years ago now).

Obviously if it’s the raw you’re going for it doesn’t really work for you.

I’ve always wanted to get them to revise the extra stays they added to the back end to something tidier but never had the inclination to send it back to them, needs a respray at some stage so that might be my opportunity

better pic here once I removed some paint and got the faces cleaned up

2Souls (without Matt@18’s Mods) – much neater than Paragon IMHO

2 souls make some lovely drop outs, most of them post dat my frame by about 5 years though, if I ever have the money to do a frame building course and build a nice 27.5 trail hardtail I’d most likely go down that route

Sorry sssimon, not wanting to slur your frame – just suggesting an alternative for the OP 😳

Not at all, paragons are great and 100% reliable but I think a lot of companies have taken the slider idea and come up with neater options.

At €69 I might buy a set of 2souls dropouts for a frame chop I plan to do on a cx bike

Yup, the 2Souls ones look just the thing for a Rohloff Fatbike I’ve got on the list to build…

That orange frame with the 2 souls has had some modification done, they are much wider than that. I’ve got a frame in mind that I may use them for but I’ll be doing a load of work on them again otherwise they are a bit lardy

Isn’t that the idea, that they make them too big and you cut them back? I’ve not seen any for real yet, might well bung ’em through the mill.

it’s exactly the idea and you will want to do some machining, although make sure someone helps you get them on the mill table

Some kind of gantry crane or something? 😉