I have the licence catagory to be able to drive a 16st minibus so thats covered.

I have been asked by the local climbing team to organise a 16st minibus for a trip to Font next year. The minibus isnt an issue but i am not sure how the trip is classified with regards to PSV licence etc.

Basically members of the climbing teams want to go and the centre has said they will organise. Climbers will cover their accomodation, travel and instruction costs. A few instructors from the wall will be there.

Is this classed as ‘for hire and reward’ seeing as i will be volunteering my services.

I have emailed DVLA and awaiting their response but wondered if anyone on here has done similar for their local clubs?

Pretty sure you’re OK as long as you have D1 on your licence. I’m sure the hire company will be able to tell you what you need as they’ll be the ones that you have to show your licence to when you pick it up.

Tom KP

I have the D1 catagory on the licence, however its the Hire & reward i am worried about.

I am not charging for driving and i would just be splitting the fuel and insurance costs between all parties (Including myself and my daughter). However as the trip is organised by a commercial climbing wall would that be deemed as for hire and reward

AFAIK it’s only classed as being for hire or reward if you’re being paid for doing the driving. As you’re contributing to the cost of the trip by paying for yourself (and daughter) it’s not a commercial arrangement so IMO you’re effectively simply driving a bunch of mates to an event.

It’s the same as you driving a few people to an event in your own car where the passengers contribute to the cost of fuel, the only difference is that in this case you’re collectively hiring a minibus to travel in.

Even the BMC are reluctant to give any guidance on what constitues hire and reward for club minibus use.

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/Download.aspx?id=386

They advise getting advice from DVLA or VOSA. Good luck with that. 😐

I think the involvement of a commercial organisation in the running of the trip might swing the balance against you.

You have to be making a profit IIRC if it’s just to cover cost of hiring running the minibus then no PSV needed.

I deal with this quite a bit with Cadet force minibuses. So long as you’re not being paid to drive specifically and you’re part of the group as such you’ll be fine.

Thanks guys.

You will need a bus with a Tacho on for the continent – and use it.

Do you not need the full minibus licence for driving in France regardless of hire or reward?

Check here: http://www3.hants.gov.uk/ct_fact_sheet_3_-_taking_a_minibus_abroad_-_2011-07-21__hf000001880921_.pdf

I should say, ours never leave the country so not sure about driving in France.

Have a read of this: Minibus Q&A’s

Any 16st minibus will have a tacho as they need to be over 3.5t to even carry the passengers. That should be ok.

However the link pennine put up basically contradicts everything we said.

Yep its hire and reward
Yep its gonna need PSV.

Poo.

Completing this application might cover you :

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/application-for-a-standard-or-large-bus-permit-psv372

AFAIK it’s only classed as being for hire or reward if you’re being paid for doing the driving. As you’re contributing to the cost of the trip by paying for yourself (and daughter) it’s not a commercial arrangement so IMO you’re effectively simply driving a bunch of mates to an event.

Are you sure, as I’m certain the last set of rules meant that folk who drove for a living would need to count ANY hours driving non-cars for tacho. Could be mistaken, but sure I saw it in my wifes’ Horse&Hound with regard to HGV horseboxes.

AFAIK it’s only classed as being for hire or reward if you’re being paid for doing the driving. As you’re contributing to the cost of the trip by paying for yourself (and daughter) it’s not a commercial arrangement so IMO you’re effectively simply driving a bunch of mates to an event.

It’s the same as you driving a few people to an event in your own car where the passengers contribute to the cost of fuel, the only difference is that in this case you’re collectively hiring a minibus to travel in.

Hire and Reward doesn’t just mean being paid, it means that you’re in someway financially benefitting from doing the driving, which doesn’t just mean money. It can be as basic as being bought a drink.

Even in your car, accepting fuel money means you’re technically receiving a reward, and can invalidate normal car insurance.

Best option would be to contact the hire company and ask them, as I’m sure they’ll have specific requirements for any of their vehicles going abroad. Even if they don’t know the license requirements, any decent hire company will be a member of the BVRLA who should know the answer to these questions.

Any 16st minibus will have a tacho as they need to be over 3.5t to even carry the passengers.

Not the case.

My knowledge of this is 15yrs out of date but I once co-drove a minibus of junior kayakers to Italy. The problem with hire or reward was that not all the countries you drive through have the same definitions. By some definitions, if you had to hire the bus, that made it hire or reward, because you had to recover the hire cost. The test question suggested to us was “Has anyone on the trip had to pay anything that, if they didn’t pay, they couldn’t go on the trip.” If so, it was hire or reward.