Out of interest, just wondering if people tend to let the car slow in gear or hit the brakes when they approach junctions, queueing traffic etc.
Chat Forum
driving and the use of brakes
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Posted 6 months ago #
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I was always a confirmed "engine-braker" (must be my motorcycling background) but during advanced car driving instruction I was convinced that it's cheaper to replace brakes than engines
In reality, I try to ease off before I have to stop - so "none of the above".
Posted 6 months ago # -
I sometimes amuse myself by seeing how far I can drive without touching the brakes. Bad for the engine ? could be, but I've never heard that one before.
Posted 6 months ago # -
nothing worse than a brake happy guy on the motorway, tapping his brake every few minutes, instead of just leaving a bit more room
Posted 6 months ago # -
I normally plan to use the engine to slow down and only use the brakes towards the end of the deceleration unless it transpires that i misread the situation. Only do it because I think it flows a bit smoother.
Not to say that my way is right or wrong, that's just how I drive.
Posted 6 months ago # -
Jackie Stewart's book Principles of Performance Driving.
Chapter 4
The High Speed Technique.
"On the subject of gear changing techniques, I have always believed that you should take as little out of the car's transmission as possible that obviously means gentle, sympathetic changes when going up through the gears, but also by using the brakes to their maximum when slowing down, often missing gears while changing down through the box. Many people think that racing drivers go all the way down through the gears in a six-speed box like a machine gun. But that means you're taking on a juggling act: steering, operating the pedals, blipping the throttle and using the gear lever like a madman. I always chose to change down by jumping through gears.
........from sixth to fourth to second. That applies to wet or dry conditions, although you need to be careful how you do it in the wet, perhaps eliminating all the down changes, using the brakes to knock off your speed, and then finally slipping from sixth to first gear right at the end. Remember, you are not going to stop any faster by using the transmission. Brakes are made to stop a car, gears are primarily for acceleration. Deceleration was not part of the gearbox's original purpose: don't abuse it. "Then again he was only F1 world champion 3 times.
Posted 6 months ago # -
its only bad for your clutch if you down shift to slow down. pre emptive slowing down in the same gear is fine for the engine/clutch.
I still only use my brakes.
Posted 6 months ago # -
Around town, use the brakes - better to have some lights come on to give those behind a chance of knowing what you're up to. Hasn't stopped 3 folks running into the back of me tho...
Posted 6 months ago # -
Not sure I would take Jackie Stewart's advice on anything - have you seen his trousers ?? Not to mention his hair...
I engine brake it's how I was taught to drive - I vaguely remember something about better control when the engine is powered rather than coasting. Try to keep it smooth rather than jumping on the brakes, keep a good distance and you don't need to.
Oh yes and of course tap to show some brake lights when slowing down, esp on the motorbike.
Posted 6 months ago # -
I beg to differ on bad for the clutch - drove the same van for 100k miles on the same clutch. Sample of one, I know.
Posted 6 months ago # -
Interesting that stuff from Jackie Stewert - I was taught to engine brake and always do - but tend to touch the brake pedal very lightly to illuminate the brake lights.
So say coming towards a roundabout on a 60 mph road I would double declutch down at least one gear at relatively high revs and then slow in that gear
Interesting
Posted 6 months ago # -
That's because like me TJ you're a two-wheeler. going hi-revs actually give yo more stability. Very noticeable on a 2 wheeler, not so much on a 2 tons box of steel with 4 wheels.
Posted 6 months ago # -
I've always used the engine and gearbox instead of the brakes, especially in snow or icy conditions, but that's mainly open road driving; in slower traffic I use the brakes, and coming up to junctions or whatever I use the gearbox to shed speed then use the brakes for final slowdown. It works for me, I've only had a car go sideways once on a very icy road.
But then, I'm not a racing driver, and don't try to drive like one.Posted 6 months ago # -
I normally lift of the accelerator and slow down before using the brakes. I don't deliberately shift down to slow down.
My driving instructor always told me that you shouldn't need to do anything other than gentle braking (except in an emergency) as you will be looking ahead and thinking about what is going on and what you are needed to do.
Don't understand playstation drivers (only have go and stop) who floor it away from lights then brake hard at the next set. Maybe its the cycling influence, I'm reluctant to sprint away from lights and then brake when I can go a bit slower and not have to stop conserving energy).
Posted 6 months ago # -
Start thinking of brake lights as signals and you'll soon stop engine braking.
Back in the days of all round drum brakes that couldnt self adjust people used to be taught to engine brake, because if they didnt the car would always be in the garage getting the brakes adjusted. Now in the days of cars with all round disc brakes and everything self adjusting, that need has been taken out and transmission is the most expensive part to replace. There are also a shed load more cars on the roads so please tell each other what you're intending to do....
Posted 6 months ago # -
Macavity - Member
Jackie Stewart's book Principles of Performance Driving.Hmmm, performance driving so not that relevant to driving around on the roads unless your some rude boy trying to race round every corner up and down through the gears.
Posted 6 months ago # -
Brakes to slow gears to go (so no changing down to slow down), but there was also a big emphasis on what they called 'acceleration sense' when I did my training, which I assume still applies. (Good description of it here.)
Posted 6 months ago # -
Brake lights as signals - of course they are, what numpty wouldn't adjust their speed when the car in front of them does. Not convinced that precludes engine braking - esp if you keep a good stopping distance and know what is behind you, as you know what mirrors are for. Nobody exclusively engine brakes that would be silly, slow it down then the brakes for the final approach.
Unless some eejit is following too close, then they get a few wee taps to make him back off.
Posted 6 months ago # -
That's not quite my point. It's easier to notice a car slowing down due to brake lights than it is due to it getting closer. Some people who are perfectly capable of driving only have good eyesight in one eye so arent all that great at judging distances.
Posted 6 months ago # -
Where's Smurfrat when you really need him?
Posted 6 months ago # -
I was told not to engine brake on my minbus-for-schools training.
One of the things that crossed my mind (apart from slowing a vehicle full of someone else's kids with no braking signal!) was that an empty long wheel base transit (with therefore a much greater proprtion of its overall weight near the front, but still with driving wheels at the back) using its rear wheels not front ones to brake was a potential recipe for slidy back end on the minibus, and brown trousers on its driver.
Mind you, quitea few years since then: are new trannys fwd now?
Posted 6 months ago # -
Engine breaking when I was doing my police advanced driving training was an automatic fail. Unless you were doing it to aid in winter type conditions to help with gradual breaking.
Posted 6 months ago # -
I think is a generational thing. My old man always uses engine braking slowing down where as I have always used the brakes because I was also taught that it is cheaper to replace brake pads than it is a new clutch.
Posted 6 months ago # -
Just for clarification, because I remember this getting argued about before.
When people say engine braking are they talking about
1) Lifting off the throttle and allowing the car to slow down as described in that link up there, or
2) Changing down a gear to slow down?
Because they aren't the same thing (a policeman told me the first is ok and the second is not).
Posted 6 months ago # -
I tend to change gear to slow down - so approaching a roundabout at 60 mph the first thing I will do is double declutch down a gear or even two.
Not saying its right but thats what I do.
Drac - thats interesting - I got as far as doing my driving assessment for the ambulance service and they asked me to change down a gear at 50 mph without jolting the vheicle
Posted 6 months ago # -
I was talking about number 2
Posted 6 months ago # -
Drac - thats interesting - I got as far as doing my driving assessment for the ambulance service and they asked me to change down a gear at 50 mph without jolting the vheicle
That would be a sustained gear change, to smoothly (and therefore stably) select a more appropriate gear, not to slow down.
Posted 6 months ago # -
So say coming towards a roundabout on a 60 mph road I would double declutch down at least one gear at relatively high revs and then slow in that gear
I'm trying to work out what you would be driving/riding to need to do that?I was taught the same as Drac on my driving course but in reality I do use engine braking to some extent when driving at speed (particularly if it's icy or in snow) and will also on occasion go directly from 5th to 1st depending on circumstances and conditions.
Posted 6 months ago # -
Woody - anything I drive ( not that I drive a great deal these days) Its just my habit to use the engine to slow and to drop down the gears at high revs. as Juan says it might be habit from motorcycles. 60 mph in 3rd is still way off the redline in most vehicles.
Its about having he engine in its most responsive range and having it in the right gear to accelerate away
I even heel and toe downshifts sometimes if I want to change down further while braking.
As I say - I accept thqt it might be wrong / outdated practice. I did do a lot of miles on old british bikes with rubbish brakes
Posted 6 months ago # -
TJ - that's not double de-clutching
Posted 6 months ago # -
More of Jackie Stewart
Chapter 6
"The Road Application.Somehow many people think that the better the driver you are, the more gear changes you need to make, both up and down, not to mention changing down as many times as possible when you are braking for a stop sign or a round about. Not so! I'd rather use the brakes first because brake pads are cheaper to replace than gear boxes!
Roll into a corner under braking, even in fourth gear, and put it directly into second gear when the time is right, but not when the car is going to nose down and the rear wheels lock up momentarily while the revs shoot off the clock.
So don't rev the engine violently; change gear early and apply the brakes before down-shift smoothly. The braking comes before the gear changing on the way down, never the other way round. And the brake application again should be smooth and progressive. Before you have even so much as touched the brakes you must consider the way in which you come off the power. Don't come off the throtle pedal abruptly, but ease back on it gently.......
The same should apply when you press the brake. Do it gently and progressively and , before you have finished the braking motion, release the brake again very gently and progressivley, so that you don't feel it coming off......a road car is more softly sprung and greater suspension movement , more roll, more dive and more squat. All the movements are exaggerated compared with a competition car."
The style of driving that only got JS 3 world titles was to be as economical and as smooth as possible. This was to use as little fuel as possible and to have as much control as possible. It was a style of driving that JS beleives is directly transferable to road driving.
As JS says there are no principles / techniques that he used that are different from the ones that he would use in normal road driving.
He also has an example of how his team mate Francios Cevert died in a crash; possibly by being in too low a gear, with the revs too high and lost control of the car.
The advantages of driving as the car was designed , using the brakes are many: all four wheels are breaking (sharing the tyre wear in a two wheel-drive car at least), Dual Mass fly wheels are not cheap, etc.Posted 6 months ago # -
Double declutching, are you 85 TJ? Out of interest and for balance, have you noticed a higher proportion of maintenance bills on your vehicles or not?
Posted 6 months ago # -
Oh and my cars DSG so it does it's own thing
Posted 6 months ago # -
1) Lifting off the throttle and allowing the car to slow down as described in that link up there, or
2) Changing down a gear to slow down?
I guess if you take it down just the one gear to allow a gradual decelleration to continue to progress, without kicking the engine too high in the rev band, then it's not much of a problem, and you have more braking available if you need to come to a halt more quickly. In these situations I always have my foot on the brake pedal just a little to make sure the brake lights are on when doing this.
Posted 6 months ago # -
Woody - proper double declutching and heel and toe downshifts
M6TTF - I don't own cars - hire cars / vans so no idea if I am causing more wear.
I was definitely taught to use engine braking. but it was 30 odd years ago.
Posted 6 months ago #
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