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Drinking With Racists

222 posts & 65 voices | Started 11 months ago by GrahamS | Latest reply from Frankenstein

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GrahamS - Member

So how should I handle this one then?

I meet up with a few blokes (up to 6 or 7) in the pub most Wednesday nights. It's a bit of an informal drinking circle that I've fallen into.

They are all typical Geordies. Bit rough round the edges, with tons of manly banter and bluster, but all decent enough. Sometimes they'll express some "opinions" that I don't necessarily share, but as a relative newcomer to the group I'll just keep my head down or change the subject.

Last night though, one of them was telling us about a guy that stacks shelves for his wife at the supermarket, but who also owns several businesses and is apparently very well off.

And interesting anecdote and normally this sort of behaviour would be commended. He'd be called "a proppa graffta".

BUT... this guy was "a darkie" (their words not mine) so it was dismissed as "greedy" and "they're all money-grabbing b******ds".

Worse still it turns out this bloke had asked the guy telling the story if he'd do some work for him, which he'd declined on cost, but confided to the group "ah couldnae work for a darkie like".

I didn't say anything, I just turned, walked away and played the fruit machine for a bit instead. But this morning I felt like a coward for not challenging them on it.

Should I have kicked up a proper stink?

Posted 11 months ago #
toppers3933 - Member

I would have said something. Would have tried to be diplomatic about it but personally I would have said something. I dont think youre a coward for not doing so though.
Probably be the last time I went drinking with them though.

Posted 11 months ago #
woody2000 - Member

Don't worry about it, just don't go out with them again. Simples

Posted 11 months ago #
5thElefant - Member

I think it was in Dan Walsh's book (These are the Days That Must Happen to You) where he retold a story he'd heard from an Argentinian bloke who was in a pub in Newcastle during the Falklands war.

A large, short-haired fella with tattoos and a football shirt comes up to him and asks where he's from. The Argentinian bloke says... Argentina.

Geordie: Just as long as you're not for Gateshead.

Not sure how relevant it is, but I suspect black, brown, southern, northern... they'll say they hate them. So it's not prejudice as such.

Posted 11 months ago #
Drac - Moderator

Sadly "Darkie" is still used around areas of the NE, not a pleasant word but was used commonly for along time in the NE so some still do.

This bit "they're all money-grabbing b******ds" "ah couldnae work for a darkie like".is going way too far in my opinion, it's not easy to speak up a large group and even more so when your new and out of the area. Probably best to defuse like you did they may get the message.

Interestingly or maybe not, I regular got what may be seen as racist jokes regular of a few different friends on my phone. In the end when I seen them face to face I'd told them not to bother sending me those ones, been friends with them for years too. Still am mind but the jokes have stopped.

Posted 11 months ago #
Lifer - Member

Pick your battles. I have the same at work and it's difficult to challenge if the problem is 'that's out of order' you'll just get a shrug. When someone spouts prejudice based on incorrect facts then it's a lot easier to correct them (immigration is bad for the country, coming here to claim benefits and send them home kinda thing).

The only time I've got properly angry with someone at work was when they said 'All WW2 films make the Germans look worse than they were because the Jews control Hollywood' I had to go for a walk to calm down after that particular 'discussion'.

Posted 11 months ago #
molgrips - Member

I'd have called him on it, with something like 'well why's that important?'

You might expose an undercurrent of bitter hatred, but you might just make him stop and think 'er, I dunno, I suppose it's not important'.

Posted 11 months ago #
binners - Member

As somebody who has worked for a darkee, I can assert with some confidence that they're right. They are indeed all they're all greedy money-grabbing b******ds

Only kidding. Some of them are ok

In all seriousness, it depends on your background. I imagine most people on here live a nice cosy, middle-class, Guardian-reading existence. There's very little racial tension. You sometimes forget that there are areas of the country far less cosmopolitan and racially diverse. And therefore the prejudices are just more common and acceptable.

They probably think you're gay too

Posted 11 months ago #
D0NK - Member

Tricky one, have young lads at work who come out with racist stuff, pretty easy to tell them to stop being such idiots but with a group of your peers when you're relativley an outsider....dunno. Does seem a bit cowardly, either mtfu and tell them or don't meet them in future is probably the "proper" answer. Maybe try to re-educate them when there's only one or two of them?

Posted 11 months ago #
muppetWrangler - Member

After the "ah couldnae work for a darkie like" comment I would have (and have) used the line "Really? It wouldn't have bothered me but then I'm not a racist".

This has the effect of either drawing them out in which case you confirm that are indeed racist scum and you should find new friends. Or it can go the other way and get the "well neither am I, but it's just different " defensive response. This one means that you may still need to find new friends or possibly it was just crude an insensitive language being used without malicious intent or thought.

Either way the important thing is not to let it go unsaid. So yes I think you should have said something but it may be that you were a bit taken aback by the situation. Maybe catch them next time, these views shouldn't go unchallenged.

Posted 11 months ago #
GrahamS - Member

Did you win anything?

Nah. I got onto the bonus wheel and got up to £8 but then it screwed me.

Shooduv thrown poo in his face.

Didn't have any handy.

Don't worry about it, just don't go out with them again. Simples

Mmmm... except: they are friends of friends. It's a very small village. And I have no other mates in the area. Plus this is my only regular social activity (14mo baby = no spare time. I can only manage this because the pub is literally 50 yards from my house).

Posted 11 months ago #
mudshark - Member

Bring a 'darkie' mate along next time.

Posted 11 months ago #
D0NK - Member

I think a variant of muppetwranglers,a slightly less aggressive way would be to say "Really? why not?" get them to explain why it's a bad thing, they may have suddenly come over all shy.

Posted 11 months ago #
5thElefant - Member

Solicit their views on southerners, scousers, the french, people from the next village etc...

I bet they say exactly the same things.

And in reality they'd quite happily work for them.

Posted 11 months ago #
Lifer - Member

After the "ah couldnae work for a darkie like" comment I would have (and have) used the line "Really? It wouldn't have bothered me but then I'm not a racist".

That's pretty good! I like.

Posted 11 months ago #
project - Member

Just walk away, dont get involved, easy.

He has every right to expres his opinion, we dont and cant all agree on everything.

Posted 11 months ago #
Junkyard - Member

personally I decided along time ago that I would not let homophobia or racism go unchalleneged wherever I was or whatever the consequences. I have had to run for my life once from a rather animated [ ironicaly black man] who was going to kill me for defending gays as being ok at a party.
I certainly could not let it go. It is however often difficult to know when ignorance and racism meet. I come form a wee scottish village and some relatives [ who have never left there] call people darkies. They are most definetly ignorant though I am less sure they are racist. I do chalenge them they invariably then think coloured is ok
I think refusing to work for one and thinking hard working "darkies" are greedy shows that whatevr a memebr of that racial group does they will find a way of negatively spinning it which shows racism rather than ignorance or banter.
I think you neeed to speak up or you will just drift out tha social scene and they wont do.
EDIT: What about tutting loudly and getting some pamphlets for them and but them all a Nelson Madela T-shirt?

Posted 11 months ago #
into de_void - Member

Quite a quandary there Graham, I've was an Equality & Diversity Advisor (as a secondary function of my primary role) within the MoD for 4yrs and in that time I must have presented MoD policy to 000s of military recruits and attached Civil Servants, I think its safe to say I came across every opinion you can imagine and a few more besides. To counter racism you have to understand the root cause of that individuals racist beliefs, is it social conditioning, xenophobia, family pressure, personal experience etc and each cause requires a different response to "re-educate" and sometimes you just have to accept that you're not in a position of influence/authority to do this. At the end of the day it depends how much you value their friendship over this individual/groups opinions. I know what my response would be as I've done it on many occasions and that's to challenge what I find unpalatable, but equally I've had many opportunities to do so and to craft my input accordingly.

Posted 11 months ago #
Hairychested - Member

If drinking is your only social activity find yourself a hobby or a pastime. Drinking with a bunch of people you're uncomfortable with doesn't sound great to me.
Get yourself some Unimog Lego sets, throw the instruction away, by the time you get it all working your village will become a city

Posted 11 months ago #
Shibboleth - Member

I'd fuggedaboutit. Everyone's entitled to their own views and opinions, you're not going to change his - you just run the risk of isolating yourself, as the chances are, others in the group share his views.

As long as his views don't impact on you, put you in an awkward position (involving others outside the group, of course) and you're not forced to compromise your own views and beliefs, I'd just let it go.

I drink with Labour supporters, and everything!

Posted 11 months ago #
muppetWrangler - Member

That's pretty good! I like.

I can't take credit for it. Ms muppetWrangler works for the NHS and often get comments about the "paki doctors" despite none of them actually being from Pakistan. She probably uses the line a couple of times a month. Obviously the dynamic is different to being in a pub but she's only ever got the defensive "well no neither am I" response.

Posted 11 months ago #
molgrips - Member

Hmm.. I'd rather sit in and watch TV than drink with racists to be honest.

Posted 11 months ago #
GrahamS - Member

To be fair I think at least part of his objection was that the "ethnic gentleman" wanted to pay cash-in-hand, no receipts at considerably less than the going rate - which fitted with the previous comments about "being greedy" etc - but again I'm not sure he would have raised the same objection if I'd asked him to do some work for me on the same terms.

Posted 11 months ago #
Hairychested - Member

"GrahamS, no, it'd be different as you're one of them (so to speak). He'd be doing you a "favour".

Posted 11 months ago #
trailmonkey - Member

In all seriousness, it depends on your background. I imagine most people on here live a nice cosy, middle-class, Guardian-reading existence. There's very little racial tension. You sometimes forget that there are areas of the country far less cosmopolitan and racially diverse. And therefore the prejudices are just more common and acceptable.

I can't see much sense in that reasoning tbh. I come from Brum but live in Devon. There's virtually no racial diversity or tension here but the overwhelming majority of people are overtly racist and words like nigger, coon, paki etc are in common usage. Far more so than my experience in Brum although I'm not saying that racism didn't exist there too.

Posted 11 months ago #
Elfinsafety - Member

I imagine most people on here live a nice cosy, middle-class, Guardian-reading existence.

I don't!

I can't even afford the Gaurdian. It's too expensive.

Just walk away, dont get involved, easy.

First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for me
and there was no one left to speak out for me.

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing

So, not speaking up = cowardice? Yes, in my book. I'd rather stand up, confront the bigot and get a thump, than not say owt. Not voicing any opposition serves only to validate his attitudes and behaviour.

But as suggested, there are subtle and less confrontational ways of challenging such a dick. So don't beat yourself up about it, but have a think, and the next time this prick says owt stupid, you can be prepared with something intelligent that will make him look a fool.

Posted 11 months ago #
binners - Member

Why not organise a little racially integrated field trip. A sort of grown up exchange visit. Maybe a couch trip for you all, from the pub, to Notting Hill Carnival next week. They can embrace 'darkee' culcha. Drink red stripe. Smoke big spliffs and stuff. Maybe get some comedy rasta wigs?

In return, some 'people of colour' could be invited to the North East to drink WKD, go out in sub-zero temperatures with virtually no clothes on, have a fight outside a kebab-house and fall asleep in a pool of their own vomit.

Just a thought.

Posted 11 months ago #
llama - Member

Knew a guy once who was always making racist comments, but passing it off as a joke. Ha Ha we used to think, he is funny, not racist. Then one day it turns out a pretty attractive lady has the hots for him. He was not exactly a looker and apart from this occasion never really a hit with women. Anyway, he turns her down 'because she was asian'. I didn't even notice, thought she just had a tan, english sounding name and so on. But no, he asked her outright and then blew her out.

It made me realize: there is always meaning behind those off hand throw away comments. There is no 'its just banter', and no 'if its not them its the next village etc etc.

So anyway I would have told them it didn't bother me who I worked for.

Posted 11 months ago #
Lawmanmx - Member

racism is a game Every nation of the world plays innit?

Posted 11 months ago #
Elfinsafety - Member

In return, some 'people of colour' could be invited to the North East to drink WKD, go out in sub-zero temperatures with virtually no clothes on, have a fight outside a kebab-house and fall asleep in a pool of their own vomit.

Oooh! Oooh!

(Jumps up and down frantically waving hand in air)

I went to Stoke once. There were girls in boob tubes and wide belts, with white stilletos on, tottering about.

I was wearing a puffer jacket. And I was still cold.

Posted 11 months ago #
muppetWrangler - Member

Just walk away, dont get involved, easy.

He has every right to expres his opinion, we dont and cant all agree on everything.

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
Edmund Burke

The quote is a bit melodramatic given the circumstances but the [assumed] racist should know that you disagree with him, if enough people did this eventually he might realise that his view is out of step with society and reconsider at least his language or better still his viewpoint. Walking away changes nothing and as the OP has already said makes him feel bad as well.

[edit] Too slow and probably too predictable with the Edmund Burke quote.

Posted 11 months ago #
project - Member

Quite a few years ago, discussing a new girkl who was chineese and good at her job, trainee Occupational therapist, i said to my lady boss and her mates, strange she didnt stay in takeaways and restraunts.

I got shot down, until i finally got the chance to explain a mate was chineese, his family had a large chinesse restraunt and his family would not speak to him when he went to uni to study electronics, instead of working for the family as all the other brothers did, and that the young ladys family had a large restraunt and takeaway buisness and she had experienced the same, shame they had not even spoken to her first.

I never did get an apology.

Posted 11 months ago #
molgrips - Member

But as suggested, there are subtle and less confrontational ways of challenging such a dick

Yes, and more effective too. In many cases a 'you what?!' as if they just said they like to dress up in women's underwear would be much more effective than a Guardianista style rant.

Posted 11 months ago #
StefMcDef - Member

So that's why Chris Hughton got bumped.

Are your friend's names Joey, Kevin, Andy, Jonas, Fabio and Shola, by any chance?

Posted 11 months ago #
j_me - Member

have a think, and the next time this prick says owt stupid, you can be prepared with something intelligent that will make him look a fool
I wouldn't think too hard, a witty and intelligent reply would probably go right over this guys head.

Posted 11 months ago #