That’s hardly “uncontrolled” is it?

Yes it is actually.

If you’re having problems stopping for dogs on the trail then you are the one lacking in control.

Excuse me? I’m the one with the legal right to be there. I sholdn’t have to risk my safety because some dog suddenly crosses my path, the thing should legally be ‘under control’. And if the owner can’t guarantee that, then it should be on a lead. I always prepare to slow down if I see dogs, but they are unpredictable beasts which don’t always listen to or understand orders.

Do you expect other animals to be kept on leads too? Rabbits? Deer? Children?

Neither rabbits notr deer have ever caused me any problems. And children have the legal right to be there, and invariably, right of way, so it’s a useless comparison.

Do you own a dog/s? Do you have a problem with keeping it under control at al times?

Excuse me? I’m the one with the legal right to be there.

Well done you.

Do you own a dog/s?

Not at the moment, but I have in the past.

Do you have a problem with keeping it under control at al times?

Nope. But I don’t think “under control” means keeping them on a lead.

e.g. here’s a dog worrying livestock, it’s not on a lead and the owner is just standing there shouting at it. Do you want to tell him to put a lead on it?

I think we’re arguing the same sides of the coin here. A dog doesn’t *have* to be on a leash to be under control, but the vast majority of dogs that I encounter on my canal towpath commute are neither on a leash nor under control

But I don’t think “under control” means keeping them on a lead.

It doesn’t matter what you think though. What matters is the legal requirment of alldog owners to ensure their dogs are kept under control at all times. In my experience, very few dogs can be reliably kept under control without a lead. And in situations where cyclists may also be using a path, then it’s the owner’s responsiblity to ensure it doesn’t cause harm or damage to anyone or theor property. What’s the problem with being law-abiding and respecting others?

Do you expect other animals to be kept on leads too? Rabbits? Deer? Children?

Just make sure you have the holy handgrenade of Antioch if you suspect any rabbits are close by.

the vast majority of dogs that I encounter on my canal towpath commute are neither on a leash nor under control

On my commute the dogs running free rarely cause me any bother, it’s the ones on leads that cause issues – typically because the dozy owner sees me approaching and moves to the opposite side of the path from their dog 😯

For added fun they do this at night with the dog off in the bushes on the end of a nearly invisible black extendable lead.

What matters is the legal requirment of alldog owners to ensure their dogs are kept under control at all times.

You mean the Countryside Code which says:

When you take your dog into the outdoors, always ensure it does not disturb wildlife, farm animals, horses or other people by keeping it under effective control. This means that you:

• keep your dog on a lead, or

• keep it in sight at all times, be aware of what it’s doing and be confident it will return to you promptly on command

Which also says, by the way:

When riding a bike or driving a vehicle, slow down or stop for horses, walkers and farm animals and give them plenty of room. By law, cyclists must give way to walkers and horse-riders on bridleways.

As you are “being law-abiding and respecting others” then you must be slowing down or stopping for walkers already? Yes? So a dog off the lead, as it is allowed to be, shouldn’t cause you a problem.

Personally I’m more annoyed this isnt a nostalgic hedge porn thread.

I take my dog out off the lead regularly and the only cyclist he has knocked off is me when he was on the lead and I thought I could both hold a lead in one hand and ride a drop off. 😳

I agree that a dog can behave unpredictably especially when spooked by a bike hurtling towards them with a day glow power ranger attached. However requiring them all to be on leads because SOME get in the way is a bit like banning cyclists from a route as some go to fast and can’t be trusted to be courteous to other users of said route.

I’m going back that way tonight with my mate. btw further on down my ride the other night there was another bridleway with a great big clear sign pointing through a farmyard. In the farmyard there were 4 gates blocking the way, not opening horse gates but permanent gates. I went and knocked on the door to ask if could come through with bike as I didn’t want some big dog taking chunks out of me. She said they’ve put the gats up to deter a local farmer using it as run to get to his field and that the tractor throws crap all up their windows. I pointed out that rights of way are supposed to be unhindered for progress and she just shrugged. I will be reporting both to the local row officer. How do I find out which council a property falls under?

when he was on the lead and I thought I could both hold a lead in one hand and ride a drop off.

Ho, ho!

Good work for giving it a go though, I like your style!

New landowner near me put speed limit signs on the bridleway going past his property, i’m still waiting for him to be out there with a speed camera! 🙂

crashtestmonkey – Member

Personally I’m more annoyed this isnt a nostalgic hedge porn thread.

yes the internet has changed things – kids all in doors watching www. porn nowadays – none of that hopeful searching under hedges on the way home from school, summers were longer too

Well in much maligned Surrey where we’re all drunken hooligans and apparently all mtb’ers, roadies, walkers & horse riders are at war with each other…

I find most dog walkers I come across when riding have the dog under full control and have learnt the standard technique of seeing a bike in the distance, call the dog to them and distract the dog with a treat or something, while we each smile and say hello / thanks. All without the need for a lead.

There are exceptions though. Mad woman with the crazy huge dog bounding along an official bike trail, jumping in front of wheels going fast, who proceeds to lecture us when we warn about how dangerous it is to let her dog behave like that. She rants on about how everyone is being tormented by bikes, terrifying dogs, families and horses. Which is far from what I see. Everyone is actually fairly well behaved, riders, walkers and horse riders.

You mean the Countryside Code which says:

No,i mean the actual UK law, which says:

1. Overview
It’s against the law to let a dog be dangerously out of control anywhere, eg:

in a public place
in a private place (eg a neighbour’s house or garden)
in the owner’s home
The law applies to all dogs.

Some types of dogs are banned.

Out of control
Your dog is considered dangerously out of control if it:

injures someone
makes someone worried that it might injure them
A court could also decide that your dog is dangerously out of control if:

it injures someone’s animal
the owner of the animal thinks they could be injured if they tried to stop your dog attacking their animal
A farmer is allowed to kill your dog if it’s worrying their livestock.

https://www.gov.uk/control-dog-public/overview

As you are “being law-abiding and respecting others” then you must be slowing down or stopping for walkers already? Yes? So a dog off the lead, as it is allowed to be, shouldn’t cause you a problem.

An under control dog won’t. But if it suddenly walks in front of me, darts out from behind a bush etc, casing me to have to take sudden evasive action, then it’s out of control. Simple. I’m sure you’d agree with that.

I am requred to give way to walkers and horses. Not dogs.

No it doesn’t, in fact it has no ‘right’ at all, in law. Owners of all animals have a duty of care to ensure they are treated humanely, that’s about it. And all dogs must be under control in any public or uneneclosed space, at all times.

Please enlighten me to the exact meaning of ‘under control’

My dog is very well trained and returns to me upon demand, I can assure you he is far more ‘controlled’ than the majority of dogs I see on leads.

I can also assure you it is not a legal requirement to keep a dog on a lead in a public place. It is against the law to let a dog be dangerously out of control anywhere, this includes private property.

I draw your attention to the word ‘Dangerously’

But hey, don’t let the facts get in the way of a good rant.

Please enlighten me to the exact meaning of ‘under control’

It’s in the section of law I’ve quoted above.

I can also ensure you it is not a legal requirement to keep a dog on a lead in a public place.

I didn’t say it was.

I think we’re arguing over something we actually agree on here, that dogs must be kept under control. I don’t see why any responsible person would have an issue with that.

in a public place
in a private place (eg a neighbour’s house or garden)
in the owner’s home

Whats left? Couldn’t that be made simpler by replacing that text with the word ‘Anywhere’?

So 99% of the dogs I see off the lead in my local area are causing no issue to anyone and certainly couldn’t be classified as ‘dangerously out of control’

My dog is very well trained etc…

Problem is, all dog owners say this. A lot also say ‘oh I’m sorry he’s never done that before/he doesn’t usually do that/I don’t know why he did that etc’ too. I’m not interested in their excuses, I want to be able to ride my bike safely. I don’t know your dog; I have no idea as to it’s habits and the way it reacts. Therefore I cannot be held responsible for it’s behaviour; that’s your job.

An under control dog won’t. But if it suddenly walks in front of me

Right.. so apparently to you an “out of control” is a dog that can walk about a bit which might result in you having to take “sudden evasive action” even though you’ve obviously been “law-abiding and respecting others” by slowing down or stopping for its owners.

You do realise that a dog on a lead might suddenly walk in front of you too? As might a child (with a face).

The owner’s responsibility is to keep the dog under control. It’s your responsibility to keep yourself and your bike under control.

Don’t ride here

http://www.pinkbike.com/video/363487/#top

Dangerously out of control and unpredictable beast.

Good video 😀

(but he seems to have forgotten his truck)

Right.. so apparently to you an “out of control” is a dog that can walk about a bit which might result in you having to take “sudden evasive action”

Did you read this bit?

Your dog is considered dangerously out of control if it:

injures someone
makes someone worried that it might injure them

That’s the bit that matters. Obviously, I apply comon sense, and am happy to slow down when I see dogs, but unsurprisingly, the many incidents where I’ve had to take sudden evasive action have been when a dog has suddenly appeared from a position beyond my line of sight (from behind a bush, parked car, suddenly darted out ec). I’ve even crashed into dogs (fortunately never injuring myself). I once almost strangled some poor mutt because the stupid extendable lead (which had been lying on the ground slack, suddenly went taut as the dog darted for something, got caught round my wheel and I ended up dragging the dog several yards until I realised what had hapened. Guess who got the blame for that one? 🙄

The owner’s responsibility is to keep the dog under control.

Sadly, in my expereicne, not enough do.

AnywayI’m done with this pointless argument . I’m sure you understand me quite clearly anyway. We should be discussing ways to make cycling better for everyone, not arguing because some people have a fuzzy knowledge of the law.

makes someone worried that it might injure them

this little bit is a bit daft. Plenty of folk have some un-fathomable reaction to animals, that they are all out to kill them!

I think it’s Section 2 of the Dangerous Dogs Act which says that a dog in a public place should be under control at all times. Not necessarily on a lead.

As I pointed out to the idiot who’s border collie bit my leg tbe other week. Whilst walking to heel on a lead. So I’m not sure the point I was trying to make was very effective.

How do I find out which council a property falls under?

I can think of a few unnecessarily complicated ways, but the easiest is probably to find it on an OS map and see where the boundaries are. Alternative just call the Rights of Way Officer of any ‘local’ local authority and they’ll very easily tell you if it’s on their patch or not.

this little bit is a bit daft. Plenty of folk have some un-fathomable reaction to animals, that they are all out to kill them!

It’s not always daft. Some people have justifable fear of dogs; my wife witnessed her sister being attacked and badly injured by a dog when they were little, and t’s left her with an understandable fear of large dogs. I have tried to help her with this, by encouraging her to stroke big dogs we encounter when out walking etc, and talking toowners, and she is a lot more comfortable than she used to be, but that fear is still there. Not any dog’s fault now, of course, but part of the responsibility of an owner is to consider such issues, surelY? She now hapily takes a neighbour’s lurcher out for walks on her own, but it’s taken a very long time to get to this stage. All it would take wold be for one idiot to fail to control their dog, she gets terrified, and al that effort will be for nothing. Which would be a massive shame.

How do I find out which council a property falls under?

County Council if you have one, other unitary authority or National Park Authority if not.
Just report it to your council, they’ll tell you if it’s not one of theirs.

..the many incidents where I’ve had to take sudden evasive action have been when a dog has suddenly appeared from a position beyond my line of sight..

Sorry to go on – but if you are having “many incidents” like this then you are not riding in control. If dogs appearing from the bushes or between parked cars are catching you out then so would children or other wildlife.

I once almost strangled some poor mutt because the stupid extendable lead

So you caused injury to a dog that, ironically enough, would have been absolutely fine if it was not on a lead? I’m not sure that helps your point much!

Start making signs of your own

Aren’t we past this “us lot” “you lot” “them lot” yet?

The proportion of nob jockeys is the same in all the groups whether they’re in control of a car / bike / dog.

This is blatantly obvious for anyone with all of the above.

Sorry to go on – but if you are having “many incidents” like this then you are not riding in control.

Please. What a ridiculous thing to say.
Imagine a scenario where you’re driving your car, and a kid suddenly darts out from behind a parked car. Without sufficent time to react, you crash into the kid, killing/seriously injuring it.

Would you not be in control of your car?

If dogs appearing from the bushes or between parked cars are catching you out then so would children or other wildlife.

Children and wildlife aren’t required, by law, to be under control at al times. Why is this not getting through to you?

I once almost strangled some poor mutt because the stupid extendable lead
So you caused injury to a dog that, ironically enough, would have been absolutely fine if it was not on a lead? I’m not sure that helps your point much!

Yeah; stupidity on the owner’s part was more to blame that time! 😆 The dog was fine, just a little strtled. The owner gave me an earful though. 🙄

Anyway, as I said before; why aregue over something we all agree on anyway?

Start making signs of your own

I want one of these:

Would you not be in control of your car?

The important question would be “were you paying proper attention and doing an appropriate speed for the conditions and potential hazards”

And I’m suggesting that if you are regularly colliding with dogs on the trail then you are failing at least one of those criteria.

Children and wildlife aren’t required, by law, to be under control at al times.

Excellent – so crashing into them is just fine then. It’s just dogs you need to worry about.

why aregue over something we all agree on anyway?

Sorry stoffel, I was with you for most of this debate, but in fact you do need to drive with one eye to the chance that a kid may run out between parked cars (actually, especially that scenario), and you should only ride fast enough that you can stop in the space you can see is safe.

You can’t cater for random acts of wildlife, but self preservation comes into it as well.

Grham; give it a rest mate. You just want to argue. It’s pointless. I’m sure you fuly understand the pont I’ve made. This is not a very constructive use of our time.

you do need to drive with one eye to the chance that a kid may run out between parked cars

Of course but you simply canot prepare for every single eventuality, or you’d never drive/ride anywhere.

Great to see the tradition of stw Big Hitting is being kept alive.

GrahamS winning the sanctimony prize today.

GrahamS winning the sanctimony prize today.

There are no winners.

Only loosers. 🙁