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Don't hold your breath for a Turner eBike then – Dave lets rip on Pinkbike
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chakapingFree Member
http://off-road.cc/content/news/mtb-legend-david-turner-thinks-emtbs-are-for-the-fat-and-lazy-941
He’s certainly not sitting on the fence. Refreshing to hear an honestly held belief amid all the marketing guff.
Dave’s wall of text…
“Motorized mountain bikes are perfect for expediting the banning of mechanized everything off public trails, as has been repeated over and over in these PB threads by a lot of other MOUNTAIN BIKERS, but the opposition will lump us all together, bikes is bikes. Yamaha help? That is laughable, the little effort put out by the 5 large motorcycle companies the last few decades has done NOTHING for their land access and the petrol motorized access has shrunk to motocross tracks and squirrel cages called OHV parks. For those of you that live rural with a billion acres of public land can shrug your shoulders and walk away. But the fact is most of these toys are bought where most of the people live and that is where most of the opposition lives and where most of the conflicts will arise and ultimately where most of us will be banned for the most part ’cause an electric motorized pedal bike looks too much like a human powered pedal bike. Easier just to change the laws/rules/bills whatever to say NO MECHANIZED VEHICLES. All for what? Laziness, yes yes I know I am spitting into the wind, and that the peoples pursuit of an easier life and the manufacturers ability to sell them what they want will steam roll us curmudgeons. I just want to say ‘I told you’ so when some lazy fat f*ck on a 750watt eMTB is crying about the NO BIKES signs in the parking lot. So sorry to offend you, but really WHO is going to buy a MORB? Lazy riders not wanting to squeeze in a couple more rides per week to get their fat asses stronger to hang with their best buds, just more people looking to make excuses for their lifestyle and fix it with a credit card instead of take responsibility and either ride more/eat less or if one is getting old and ‘crepid, ride the same amount of TIME and accept we will ride less distance. At the very end it’s all about the time we had on the bike, not mileage. Enjoy the time away from work/stress/concrete jungle whatever. And this ain’t about disabled people, this is about trying to jump start the floundering bicycle industry with electricity and the big companies that are driving this movement thru sexy product development and subsequent marketing will deal with the aftermath after they pay off their tooling costs haha. Ride Centres are the future people! Controlled access, segregating us from them, we will all be in a squirrel cage right where they want us, not roaming about causing harm to Mother Earth and Her beloved hikers and horses.
David Turner
Turner Bikes”nbtFull MemberShame. Mrs NBT loves her turner flux but due to injuries it’s entirely possible her next bike will be an e-bike. Just not a Turner 🙁
lazybikeFree MemberA bit ranty 🙂 but fair point about public access..not sure the bicycle industry is floundering though, at least not the retail side.
chiefgrooveguruFull MemberThe real problems are US land access laws. Much less ranting happening over in Europe. Based on their attitude you’d think that North America was more densely populated than The Netherlands!
openmtbkieFree MemberI’ve commented before that I don’t think that discussion of the US access debate is particularly helpful or in any way relevant to the UK, it’s comparing chalk with oranges, particularly concerning wilderness and the wildly different concepts of what National Parks are.
In much the same ilk, I don’t think that US vs UK E-bike debate carries any great relevance, the regulation of what constitutes an e-bike versus an electric motorbike, and where they can be used is so completely different that few parallels can be drawn.
ShandyFree MemberSo sorry to offend you, but really WHO is going to buy a MORB? Lazy riders not wanting to squeeze in a couple more rides per week to get their fat asses stronger to hang with their best buds, just more people looking to make excuses for their lifestyle and fix it with a credit card instead of take responsibility and either ride more/eat less or if one is getting old and ‘crepid, ride the same amount of TIME and accept we will ride less distance. At the very end it’s all about the time we had on the bike, not mileage. Enjoy the time away from work/stress/concrete jungle whatever.
jekkylFull MemberIs he suggesting that bicycles will eventually get banned from English bridleways because of Ebikes? can’t see that happening or how it will be enforced.
DezBFree MemberOh dear, another eBikes thread begins…
Nice rant, don’t agree with all of it, but see where he’s coming from.
Here follows “why do you HATE us?” “but I’m permanently injured” “ebikes don’t do any more damage than normal” etc etc etc
TurnerGuyFree MemberHe’s not quite talking about our lawful e-bikes though – 250W and 14.5mph pedelec.
Derestricted, and unlwaful, e-bikes over here though have the potential to cause a lot of local friction.
mickmcdFree MemberI have 3 turbo Levos and honestly have a lot of fun on one it’s a different kind of fun to the carbon full Susser the revelation however wasn’t the motor , it was athe sheer stability of the thing when it points downhill which actually made the motor useless for anything other than going up
We did however build a bike frame for a guy who imported some rear wheel hub and a big battery it does 0-60 in less than 2 seconds and top whack was 80 he was saying ……now that I can see as being a bit of an issue but hey I think they organise races round a track
chakapingFree MemberI agree Kie, virtually no relevance at all to the UK access situation.
But a magnificent rant.
daernFree MemberDerestricted, and unlwaful, e-bikes over here though have the potential to cause a lot of local friction.
I hear a lot about this, but I’m yet to see one on the trail. I’ve seen a few (a very, very few) eBikes, but I’m pretty sure none of them have been modified. I’m not anti-eBike by any means, but I would probably get grumpy if I was faced with something that more like an electric Dirty Sanchez.
Is this a real problem in the UK, and I’m just riding the wrong (or right!) trails?
thisisnotaspoonFree MemberShandy – Member
It’s TrueOne of the most depressing thing’s I’ve seen on the trails is families on e-bikes with fat kids.
Kid on e-bike keeping up with XC-racer dad I could understand. But buying yourself an e-bike because you’re slow and your kid one so he can keep up with your lazy ass (or vice versa) is just sad.
It’s a friends ‘retirement’ do from our sailing class next month, he’s 70-something-and-a-bit and has finally decided that high-performance dinghies aren’t going to work for him any longer. I don’t expect to see him racing round the cans on a jet-ski in November though. OTOH, I quite like the frisson of excitement on hearing that WCA has bought himself a bike that he can have world class accidents even faster.
I hear a lot about this, but I’m yet to see one on the trail. I’ve seen a few (a very, very few) eBikes, but I’m pretty sure none of them have been modified.
Step 1) remove magnet from rear wheel spoke (or speed sensor form chainstay).
Step 2) go faster.mickmcdFree MemberIs this a real problem in the UK, and I’m just riding the wrong (or right!) trails?
I see 4 or 5 up ladybower regularly not the bonkers ones that people build themselves if memory serves 5-7kw motors drink the battery so maybe it’s a range thing and once they have finished razzing em up and down the street they don’t have anything left to get trailside , there’s a Facebook group for building them but it’s more US based than uk it’s getting a big following though from what I wAs reading
daernFree MemberKid on e-bike keeping up with XC-racer dad I could understand. But buying yourself an e-bike because you’re slow and your kid one so he can keep up with your lazy ass (or vice versa) is just sad.
Or dad could just ride a little slower to get kid trained up. Kids don’t grow into fitness, it has to be earned. If the parents don’t give the kids the chance to get fit, they’ll never be able to keep up without assistance, and this is sad.
On the other side, my 8yo is now so bloody fit that I can barely keep up with him on the hills when he’s on the road bike. I think I might have created a monster…!
Step 1) remove magnet from rear wheel spoke (or speed sensor form chainstay).
Step 2) go faster.True enough, but I’m yet to see one – i.e. I’ve yet to have one go past me on a climb or descent in a way that has made me think “that’s derestricted”.
km79Free MemberDerestricted, and unlwaful, e-bikes over here though have the potential to cause a lot of local friction.
[quote]Is this a real problem in the UK, and I’m just riding the wrong (or right!) trails? [/quote]Just wait for it. Youtube has lots of videos about modded ebikes, plently kits available online, these things are capable of keeping up with cars on the road. Only a matter of time till they are hurling up hill sides pissing people off.
What happens then? Organised groups (walkers, landowners etc) lobbying law makers vs unorganised mountain bikers writing shite on a forum. Who do you think is going to win? Do you think they will just ban the idiots, or just ban ebikes or will it be easier/just excuse people looking for to ban all bikes?
eddiebabyFree MemberI saw quite a few in Weymouth over the last 5 days. One very cool looking e-Fatbike could have quite tempted me.
eddFull MemberIs he suggesting that bicycles will eventually get banned from English bridleways because of Ebikes? can’t see that happening or how it will be enforced.
I think that the problem here is that a proliferation of ebikes could cause problems on bridlepaths. The easy option would be to ban all bikes from bridleways because as bike companies improve integration it is getting harder to tell the difference between an ebike and a non-ebike. After all motorbikes are not allowed on bridlepaths and an ebike is a bike with a motor.
Derestricted, and unlwaful, e-bikes over here though have the potential to cause a lot of local friction.
+1 Although I would go further and say that all ebikes have the potential to cause a lot of friction.
thisisnotaspoonFree MemberI don’t think E-bike’s will get us banned from bridleways, that’s just being over dramatic. Even the disorganised lobbying of MTB groups would prevent that.
What might be an issue is more local stuff, with a proliferation of targeted bans like is currently in place on Snowdon. Riding any given pass in the Lake district for example currently takes a good couple of hours up and down and requires a degree of fitness and/or suffering to get to the top. Not hard to envisage what used to be a quiet out of the way bridleway (Garburn Pass?) which was previously quiet due to the effort involved (it’s not a great return on the climbing investment) becoming a lot busier with people basically using it as an uplifted DH trail.
Equally they could be the last nail in the coffin / straw on the camel, that brings a crackdown in already contentious areas which aren’t RoW’s (as Dave turner said). Surrey Hills, Hampshire/Berkshire/Surrey army ranges, etc. They’re all one two fingered motorised salute to the wrong landowner away from a complete ban.
dovebikerFull MemberLand access in some US states is a big issue – you can’t even ride a normal bike in some wilderness areas whilst foot and horse access is allowed. Ebikes are therefore seen as a further threat.
There’s a group of them that go out from my local shop one evening to ride the trails across the Aldershot ranges – the extra weight of the bikes and riders has done a good job of flattening down the loose, flinty tracks that they’d never get up on a regular MTB.
openmtbkieFree MemberRef E-bikes being a threat to access in the UK, my opinion is that this is this is navel gazing
When I sit down with the grown ups at major user organisations the whole E-bike thing isn’t even on the radar. News everyone – the cyclists threatening the future of improved access are the small minority who are already out there riding like dicks on normal bikes.
If the UK adopted the ‘in-between’ class of speed-pedelec as seen in sime Euro countries then there might be an issue, but at the moment that doesn’t look likely since the implications on the pedelec market of the Vnuk insurance decision are still not fully played out.
Regards derestricted bikes, the first prosecution of a shop selling them, or dongles, by trading standards will put paid to that, and I suspect that it will happen soon.
fathomerFull MemberHaving picked a couple up, I’d love to see someone hike a bike up Nan Bield or similar with one 😀
eddFull Memberthey could be the last nail in the coffin / straw on the camel, that brings a crackdown in already contentious areas which aren’t RoW’s (as Dave turner said). Surrey Hills, Hampshire/Berkshire/Surrey army ranges, etc. They’re all one two fingered motorised salute to the wrong landowner away from a complete ban.
This!
the whole E-bike thing isn’t even on the radar.
Yet…
bennybFree MemberCompletely one sided argument from a has-been manufacturer. Most other companies are working to make Ebikes more user friendly and legal and within limits to keep them classed as bikes and not motorcycles. I have a Levo, and I’m none of the aboved mentioned i.e., fat , lazy , unfit, credit card warrior looking to smoke my mates. I have one because it’s a blast to ride and that’s the end of it. As for the controversies that will soon come from all shared access , you don’t have to be on an Ebike to blast down bridleways with walkers coming up. See it all to often up the Peaks, everyone thinks they have the right to the trail. A nob will be a nob whether on a ebike or not. Having read that article, I’m gonna have a grin on my face whenever I pass a ‘turner’ whether on my ebike or normal. #itsthefuture!
roneFull MemberI’m gonna have a grin on my face whenever I pass a ‘turner’ whether on my ebike or normal
Bring it on. 🙂
Owning 4 Turners currently and countless other previous models (and friends who have had Czars) – I wish DT would just settle down get his bikes/CS sorted again rather than these rants. I have two friends who have had issues with warranties on their Czars, and obtaining help from Turner. Can’t get parts and ignoring emails is not what we signed up for.
My brand of choice but I wish things were a bit better for us in the UK.
thisisnotaspoonFree MemberCompletely one sided argument from a has-been manufacturer. Most other companies are working to make Ebikes more user friendly and legal and within limits to keep them classed as bikes and not motorcycles. I have a Levo, and I’m none of the aboved mentioned i.e., fat , lazy , unfit, credit card warrior looking to smoke my mates. I have one because it’s a blast to ride and that’s the end of it.
A normal bike is a blast to ride, however you phrase it you’ve just bought a motorised bike to ride faster/further.
As for the controversies that will soon come from all shared access , you don’t have to be on an Ebike to blast down bridleways with walkers coming up. See it all to often up the Peaks, everyone thinks they have the right to the trail. A nob will be a nob whether on a ebike or not. Having read that article, I’m gonna have a grin on my face whenever I pass a ‘turner’ whether on my ebike or normal. #itsthefuture!
The point/problem is E-bikes are going to be faster, either uphill or because they allow bikes like the Levo to be ridden to more places. Without a motor plenty of places needed either a very efficient short travel bike to get there and up the hill or a lot of fitness, which naturally limited the number of riders and kept their speeds down on the descents.
If one rider is too fast and no one is around to see it is he still a dick? E-bikes will just increase the number of riders and the chances of conflicts as a result.
Say an average weekend warrior could do a 20mile loop from Hope in the Peak, and rides a 120mm trail bike. A Levo could do 40miles and has 160mm of travel. It’s got the potential to double the traffic on the trails whilst simultaneously upping the speeds.
bennybFree Member‘Thisisnotaspoon’, surely the same argument can be said that because your bike now has 160/170mm travel your able to go down descents which would previously be unridable on a smaller travelled bike. I just feel Ebikes are another progression in cycling. Yes I can conflicts rising but they would arise anyway. More people using any area is going to cause issues, whether on an ebike or normal bike. Would you like limits on the amount of riders using the Peaks at any one time? Or trail centre? Or public place?. I admit that before I rode an ebike, I was dead against them, like the biased Mr Turner, I thought they were for disabled fat lazy cheats. I was wrong , swallowed my humble pie and brought one. Best fun every. Yes they are faster , but what’s not to like about that?? I still put as much effort into a ride and get as much enjoyment from it.
P-JayFree MemberGood for him.
I’m pleased they exist, I’ll be old one day, I might get injured one day – they could keep me in the saddle a decade longer than a non-powered bike could.
They’re taking the piss now though, they’re making more and more aggressive machines, Endruo E-Bikes, do me a favour, how tiny is the market for people who are fit and able enough to race an Enduro, but aren’t fit and able enough to do the pedalling up bit must be tiny, you could probably fit them all in the same phonebox – but it’s a ‘growing market’ nah, 99.9% of themwill be people who’d rather not do the hard/boring bit – if you want thrills without the effort, try Alton Towers or get an Xbox.
tomhowardFull MemberA Levo could do 40miles and has
160mm130mmF 135mmR of travel.Ftfy.
As for further comment CBA until all the usual arguments are presented by people who haven’t ridden one, and are being wilfully ignorant. Usually happens around the 4th page
mickmcdFree Memberthey’re making more and more aggressive machines, Endruo E-Bikes
can you actually race one of these? at an enduro or would the non racing version just be a longer travel e bike
philjuniorFree MemberI don’t think the trail access thing is remotely a problem yet in the UK.
I sort of agree with his other points though.joeydeaconFree MemberHe says it’s not about disabled people, but where does he stand with someone like Martyn Ashton riding one?
Clearly it’s a last resort for Martyn Ashton, and if this technology enables him to continue ripping up the trails, then who cares what Dave has to say on the matter.
philjuniorFree Memberjoeydeacon – Member
He says it’s not about disabled people, but where does he stand with someone like Martyn Ashton riding one?I think we can infer that he doesn’t have a problem with disabled people riding them – but that’s not what the bike industry seems to be gambling on with e-MTBs, is it?
jekkylFull MemberIt does irk a little when you’re struggling up a climb on a trail centre, perhaps a little technical incline over some rocks. You a bike coming up behind you and you pull aside to let them pass and a guy comes flying past on an Ebike and then 4 more of the buggers come right behind him.
Nehhhhh buggersI would like a go though. 😉
tomhowardFull MemberTechnically, what Martin Ashton rides isn’t an (legal) ebike, as it works without the pedals/cranks having to be turned. In the eyes of the law it’s a motorbike.
VanHalenFull MemberI don’t think the trail access thing is remotely a problem yet in the UK
not yet but it will come. some **** will run over a walker on a chipped bike and shit will meet the fan.
P-JayFree Membercan you actually race one of these? at an enduro or would the non racing version just be a longer travel e bike
There’s a class for them at some events, Neil Donoghue raced one.
Even forgetting the racing side, I still maintain that there could only be a tiny amount of people who are fit and able enough to ride the descents on a red/black TC trail, but are unable to make the climbs, there isn’t enough of them to create enough demand to make a bike, the market is for people to lazy to do it, for the people who ‘need’ them, it’s an accidental benefit, once the lazy are catered, marketing will seek to push it as a norm to sell more, left unchecked in 5 years we could be talking about non-e-bikes like we talk about 26″ wheeled bikes.
openmtbkieFree Memberbut that’s not what the bike industry seems to be gambling on with e-MTBs, is it?
Sitting down with people from Natural England & DEFRA, AONB’s etc, they are most definitely looking at E-bikes as an opportunity to encourage currently less-active people out into the countryside, making people more active has huge public health benefits, along with extending the age profile of where people’s health and activity drops off and recent studies about issues like the benefits of countryside access for wellbeing and mental health. IMO that engagement shoots down a lot of the scaremongering.
Regards the bike trade, well, don’t ever confuse the advertising with the sales profile – they know damn well that the chief sales profile is ‘middle aged plus’, and things like the recent cycling uk/open MTB off-road survey supported that a lot of riders are very much looking at e-bikes with an eye of ‘not right now, but when I’m a bit older’
bennybFree Member“Not right now, maybe when I’m older…….or when I get a go on one!”
Not that it completely follows suit, but the whole diesel /petrol vs electric car, with all the steam and publicity that’s getting plus the backing from the government and international bodies, it’s no surprise the bike industry is looking into piggybacking off that technology. End of the day, Ebikes will be more appealing to a range of customers and that’s what drives the world…..£££s. I’m afraid the purists will have to sit at the back of the class and shout abuse from the sidelines! As for the OP, relating to Turner knocking them, I’d like to know what he’d do if someone said ‘produce an ebike and your sales will double”, would he be of the same opinion??thisisnotaspoonFree MemberI’m afraid the purists will have to sit at the back of the class and shout abuse from the sidelines!
Would those be mountainbikers or E-bikers?
The argument is awfully similar to powerboat access in the Lake district as the last few lakes banned* them, where power boaters jumped up and down telling everyone that it motors were banned if would be the end of tourism, that motorboats gave everyone access to the water, that everyone who sails/rows/paddles/swims should get with the 19th century, etc etc.
Motors got banned, the tourist apocalypse didn’t happen and everyone went back to their quiet enjoyment of the Lakes.
*not actually banned, just speeds restricted to the same speeds as everyone else, which apparently isn’t fun.
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