Viewing 40 posts - 4,801 through 4,840 (of 22,966 total)
  • Donald! Trump!
  • mikewsmith
    Free Member

    Isn’t he making a lot of these changes as Executive Orders?

    I don’t understand the American legal/political framework enough to know how they work but it seems like they carry some legal weight.
    You can sign stuff into law, what he will struggle with on things like the wall is paying for it.
    On torture he has to get that approved too and actually find somebody who will do it.

    MrWoppit
    Free Member

    I don’t understand the American legal/political framework enough to know how they work but it seems like they carry some legal weight.

    They can be implemented during his term, but they are not law and can be rescinded by the next President…

    By the way, I’ve found that I JUST CAN’T STAND listening to that hideous voice sliming out all over the room from the TV every time he opens his rancid face hole… I have to attend to what he says in newsprint or second-hand reportage because his voice just makes my skin crawl.

    Any body else get this, or is it just me?

    Northwind
    Full Member

    outofbreath – Member

    He clearly thinks he’s powerless and can say what he likes and then blame Congress/Senate when it doesn’t end up as law.

    Thus winning votes with Rednecks without doing any significant harm.

    Someone should tell him he’s already the president.

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    ninfan
    Free Member

    he’s fine to resort to war crimes and defiance of the Geneva Convention?

    You’ve read the Geneva conventions, right?

    You understand the difference between those who are recognised as lawful combatants, and protected under the Geneva conventions, and those who are not, right?

    Or are you knee jerk mouthing off about something using phrases that you’ve head of but don’t understand?

    mikewsmith
    Free Member

    Which ones can we waterboard ninfan? You buying the buckets?

    outofbreath
    Free Member

    By the way, I’ve found that I JUST CAN’T STAND listening to that hideous voice sliming out all over the room from the TV every time he opens his rancid face hole… I have to attend to what he says in newsprint or second-hand reportage because his voice just makes my skin crawl.

    Any body else get this, or is it just me?

    A weird as this is to admit, when he’s scripted I find his voice really relaxing in a kind of ASMR way.

    When he’s speaking off the cuff the words are too embarrassing to be relaxing.

    binners
    Full Member

    I’m with you 100% on that one Wopster. Its like nails down a blackboard to me too. I deliberately avoided all TV and radio news for the day of his inauguration, and the 2 days afterwards. So I know what he said because I read it, but I just can’t bring myself to listen to it. I can’t stand watching his mannerisms when he speaks either. Those movements with his creepy, tiny little hands.

    This….

    Makes my skin crawl

    outofbreath
    Free Member

    “I hope you’re right fella.”

    Time will tell.

    ninfan
    Free Member

    Which ones can we waterboard ninfan? You buying the buckets?

    What you probably missed, just reading the headlines in the guardian and morning star like you do, is that he said it was a decision for his defence staff, and that for example General Matiss didn’t think it worked, that others disagreed and though it did, but that he would follow the lead of his experts

    Imagine, a president who listened to the advice of the experts and let them lead the decisions – who would have thought that was a bad thing?

    martinhutch
    Full Member

    The Geneva convention can be side-stepped even in armed combat, for example Afghanistan and the Taliban, simply because it is an agreement between states, and if you do not recognise your opponent in this way, for example ISIS, then the protections of the GC do not apply to combatants.

    The UN Convention on Torture which the US signed in the 80s is not quite as simple to dodge, hence the use of foreign installations so the US can pay lip service to meeting its requirements while torturing the crap out of whoever they fancy. But with a president who is a vocal advocate of waterboarding, I’m not sure how long that particular charade can go on.

    The US can, and will do what it wants, claiming to be a humane democracy while doing the precise opposite in some hellhole prison in north Africa.

    slowoldman
    Full Member

    You understand the difference between those who are recognised as lawful combatants, and protected under the Geneva conventions, and those who are not, right?

    So those not covered under the Geneva Convention as lawful combatants are what? Criminals I suppose since they are presumably civilian and have committed crimes (which as I recall is how the IRA were looked upon during the troubles). Is it OK to torture civilian criminals?

    mikewsmith
    Free Member

    Or to write it a little differently he promised it all the way round his campaign, got elected wants to do it but nobody in their right mind will allow it. His appointments had to categorically state they would do no such thing then he goes on tv and still says he wants to. He knew when he did the interview they said they wouldn’t do it so why say you want to?

    DrJ
    Full Member

    Or are you knee jerk mouthing off about something using phrases that you’ve head of but don’t understand?

    Maybe. Just like you’re knee-jerk trolling by saying something that makes you look like you support torture but is sufficiently ambiguous to allow you to walk away from it if challenged.

    DrJ
    Full Member

    So those not covered under the Geneva Convention as lawful combatants are what? Criminals I suppose since they are presumably civilian and have committed crimes (which as I recall is how the IRA were looked upon during the troubles). Is it OK to torture civilian criminals?

    IIRC they are not even criminals since they have not been convicted of any crime, and suspected criminals are guaranteed a fair court hearing. Maybe they are sort of “alternative criminals”.

    Alpha1653
    Full Member

    Ninfan: a decade in the Army (and counting) gives me a bit more knowledge about this than just reading headlines.

    ninfan
    Free Member

    hence the use of foreign installations so the US can pay lip service to meeting its requirements

    Yeah, but St. Obama of Barack and his Secretary of State closed all of them, didn’t they?

    while torturing the crap out of whoever they fancy.

    [quote]sufficiently ambiguous[/quote]
    The only ambiguity is whether water boarding meets the legal definition of Torture. Experts disagree. Of course, nobody on the political left really likes an answer of ‘it’s a bit more complex than that’ so instead jump up and down making wild and unfounded allegations (like accusing people of war crimes) because it makes a good placard.

    Jamie
    Free Member

    Ninfan: a decade in the Army (and counting) gives me a bit more knowledge about this than just reading headlines.

    Yeah, but Ninfan watches Infowars, so is much more qualified than you.

    cchris2lou
    Full Member

    No funny picture Ninfan?

    BoardinBob
    Full Member

    ^this

    There’s no doubt Obama would have been applying some restraint with the drone stuff, and is not a decision he would have taken lightly.

    Trump will be all “pew pew die die”

    ninfan
    Free Member

    Wonderful Alpha, then you’ll know very well that GC don’t extend to domestic or foreign terrorists, and the importance of words like perfidious.

    amedias
    Free Member

    Imagine, a president who listened to the advice of the experts and let them lead the decisions – who would have thought that was a bad thing?

    That would be a great thing, you just missed out the tiny little detail of him only listening to the experts who say things he already agrees with…

    He’s certainly not listening to, or letting experts lead things in other areas is he?

    GrahamS
    Full Member

    You understand the difference between those who are recognised as lawful combatants, and protected under the Geneva conventions, and those who are not, right?

    If you’d rather get into the legal minutiae of whether the people you are at war with are at properly at war with you, rather than the harder ethical/moral discussion then okay. I’m sure lawyers can generate some wiggle room there, they did in the past.

    Of course there are the issues of the:

    Universal Declaration of Human Rights (Article 5)
    International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (Article 7)
    UN Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment
    Wheaton’s Law

    And of course the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court which defines torture and cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment as war crimes under Article 8 (2 a ii, iii & xxi and 2 c i & ii), and as crimes against humanity under Article 7 (1 f & k).

    akira
    Full Member

    So torture, registration for certain groups, control of the media, camps to put certain people in and mass deportations. Think I’ve heard this tune before, so far trump’s presidency has been disgusting.

    mikewsmith
    Free Member

    That would be a great thing, you just missed out the tiny little detail of him only listening to the experts who say thing he agrees with…

    Apparently there are a lot of “experts” that reckon waterboarding works – they just don’t seem to talk to anyone else.
    Bit like listening to the FBI an CIA about interference in the election – I guess he only started to say nice things when a couple of hundred highly trained eyes were staring at him, or maybe somebody left a memo out called 10 best ways to kill a president when he had his tour.

    martinhutch
    Full Member

    The only ambiguity is whether water boarding meets the legal definition of Torture.

    The only people for whom there is any ambiguity over this are those who are actively seeking it and hiding behind phrases such as ‘enhanced interrogation techniques’.

    Does anyone really think that the act of putting a cloth over the mouth of a restrained person, then pouring water on it in such a ways as to deliver the sensation of drowning, is not subjecting them to severe pain and suffering?

    ninfan
    Free Member

    Define severe

    mikewsmith
    Free Member

    Tell you what we will get the water and a cloth and you pop round for a go. You an give us your experience. Though if it works you will just tell us what we want to hear so it stops. If you don’t we will carry on till you do. Sound fair?

    GrahamS
    Full Member

    Define severe

    [video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LPubUCJv58[/video]

    Now do that day in, day out, hundreds of times, with no way to stop it.

    martinhutch
    Full Member

    if waterboarding does not constitute torture, then there is no such thing as torture.

    http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/horrific-sensation-drowning-after-trumps-9696333

    Sounds pretty trivial to me.

    Junkyard
    Free Member

    ignoring the moral element it is ineffective as mikes notes as you will start saying things just to get it to stop

    Its just pointless it gives information which is utterly unreliable and leaves you morally compromised for the manner in which you obtained it

    Personally I dont think i would support it even it was effective whilst it is not then the only reason to support it is because you are the sort of person who thinks its ok to torture people.

    teamhurtmore
    Free Member

    Torture is illegal and doesnt work.

    Surprised by Mays comments in the HoC yesterday. We are guilty of torture too.

    ninfan
    Free Member

    ignoring the moral element it is ineffective as mikes notes as you will start saying things just to get it to stop

    Its just pointless it gives information which is utterly unreliable and leaves you morally compromised for the manner in which you obtained it

    Well, I broadly agree, and that’s General Matiss’ point, and undoubtedly why Trump respected his judgement enough to let him make the decision

    But that doesn’t really anwer the question as to whether it is or isn’t illegal torture does it?

    Would be interesting to hear Jack Straws comments on some of these issues…

    colournoise
    Full Member

    ninfan – Member
    Define severe

    In the context of this conversation, I find these two words as horrific as anything Trump has uttered.

    Starts to clarify where his support comes from…

    Pigface
    Free Member

    Can we waterboard ninfan to see if he thinks it is severe?

    slowoldman
    Full Member

    Torture is defined by the UN Convention against Torture, which the US has signed, as “any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person” in order to get information.
    The US legal code defines torture as an action “specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering”, while the US Constitution bans “cruel and unusual punishment”.

    Of course waterboarding when it was being employed was merely an “enhanced interrogation technique” wasn’t it?

    ninfan
    Free Member

    Reporter – What about waterboarding?
    Trump – I’m talking about information gathering methods with my experts. This includes waterboarding but I won’t make any statement until I’ve considered their advice[/quote]

    [video]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WODG0yRwQmE[/video]

    GrahamS
    Full Member

    Not sure what is more disturbing in that video:
    Donald Trump’s words or the sound of ninfan’s aroused breathing.

    globalti
    Free Member

    Have we done this yet? The Netherlands welcomes Donald Trump:

    http://mashable.com/2017/01/24/netherlands-trump-viral-video/#YutsXbfXMOqZ

    Pigface
    Free Member

    The Indy has a fun story about Trump staffers using private servers 😆

    akira
    Full Member

    Have we covered his daughter and chief adviser being registered to vote in two different states yet, I believe trump calls that voter fraud.

Viewing 40 posts - 4,801 through 4,840 (of 22,966 total)

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